Week 25: Dark Matter Archives & Imaginary Archive

Hi Everyone,

This Tuesday is another event in a year-long series of weekly conversations and exhibits in 2010 shedding light on examples of Plausible Artworlds.

This week we’ll be talking with artist and writer Gregory Sholette about his ongoing “Dark Matter Archives” project. As Sholette will be joining us from Wellington, New Zealand, where he is currently organizing his “Wellington Collaboratorium”, the conversation will also focus on the related “Imaginary Archive.”

http://www.darkmatterarchives.net/

Performative archiving is obviously a key component of many plausible artworlds but it has remained largely implicit in our weekly discussions until now. Though we have focused on practices with deliberately impaired coefficients of artistic visibility, this week we hope to explicitly tease out some of the paradoxes around the politics of that (in)visibility. The wonderfully and elusively titled “Dark Matter Archives” is dedicated precisely to those who resist visibility, as well as to those who are refused visibility by mainstream culture. In doing so, the Archives seek to provide knowledge, documents, and tools about the history and current practices of culture’s “missing mass.” Their goal is to reinforce whatever degree of autonomy marginalized artists, informal artists, and art collectives have wrested from the mainstream institutions of culture.

The “Wellington Collaboratorium” issues forth from the ambitious project, taking the notion of collaboration as a living, working material to be uncovered, explored, and put into motion. One of the collaboratorium’s outcomes is the Imaginary Archive, comprised of novels, brochures, catalogues, pamphlets, newsletters, and other material inserted into second-hand bookstores and other public places, seeking to present an alternative vision of the realities our society plausibly might inhabit, had the world been shaped differently. And perhaps more plausibly.

http://www.enjoy.org.nz/

http://www.gregorysholette.com/

 

Transcription

Week 25: Dark Matter Archives & Imaginary Archive

(Group greetings and background chatter)

[Scott]: How is everybody doing?

[Steven]: Okay here in Paris.

[Scott]: So, we've been chatting here on text for a loud.  Welcome everybody.  There's a little bit of an ambient noise, but I think that just might be the lobby where you are right Greg?

(Loud background noise)

[Greg]: Perhaps.

[Scott]: Also, is Olga there?  If so, I think her audio...

[Olga]: Um, yeah.

[Scott]: Are you guys there together?  

[Olga]: Yes.

[Scott]: Maybe I should drop you from the audio reader so that you were not revering off of one another.  You can still be in the text chat, but I can take your audio you're out.  What do you think?

[Olga]: Uh, yeah (inaudible 0:01:00.7).

[Greg]: It is better just a mute it.  

[Scott]: So otherwise, I think what it will echo like crazy.  Okay.  

[Olga]: Otherwise I will just (inaudible 0:01:08.4).  You know I never know which button to press.

[Scott]: Okay, we'll let me know if this doesn't work for you.  I will go ahead and drop you so you can share with Greg's audio.  

(Loud background noise)

Alright, that seemed to be good.

(Loud background noise)

[Greg]: Okay.

[Scott]: Whoa.  Crazy.  So welcome Greg it's good to have you I know that you talked a little bit in the text chat about the New Zealand project.  But, um, a bunch of people who are here know about the Dark Matter Archives and maybe even about the Imaginary Archives.  But some of us don't, and I bet people that will be listening in later won't too so it will be nice to maybe described them both a little bit.

(Horn honks)

[Greg]: okay so you are breaking up quite a bit but I think you ask me to describe both of the archives that we're talking about.  The first one, Dark Matter Archives, Scott has played a crucial role in organizing it and developing it online.  Basically the idea for the project is to continuously upload documents that have to do with mostly unknown histories of collectives, the kind of work that I have been doing research on for the past 10 years or so.  The new book that I have coming out in a few months with Pluto Press is essentially based on this kind of research and materials.  So the archive project here is kind of an extension of this but it is extending into maybe the realm of, you might say, of fiction as much as it is a kind of actual intent to documenting real unknown histories.  Projects here consist of materials, some of which are publications and documents of groups and collectives and events of projects that people know very little about.  In other words, a kind of dark matter.  

(Loud background noise and inaudible chatter)

Okay, so this is not working.

[Scott]: Greg, we hear you really well by the way.

(Typing and loud background noise)

[Greg]: So, I'm going to just continue about the (inaudible 0:04:58.7) projects.  The project here consists of kind of a wooden structure that you will see in the images.  And the material inside of it's consists of archival documents, projects, booklets that I have brought with me.  Material from contemporary services for example, material from political art documentation distribution in the 1980s that I was part of as well as repo history.  And a whole slew of things, some of them fairly obscure.  And these are clipped in sort of eccentric ways inside this wooden structure.

[Olga]: (Inaudible 0:06:03.7).  I did that.  I did already.

[Greg]: I don't think it's (inaudible 0:06:18.3).

[Scott]: I'm actually wrong.  It is not the pause button.  It looks like a little microphone symbol with a line through it.

[Greg]: I'm turning this down (inaudible 0:06:28.2).

[Scott]: Great.  Either way it would work, as long as you don't have two sources.  That's much better.  

[Greg]: You can hear me pretty well?  

[Scott]: Yeah, that's much better.  As long as you feel that you can hear yourself not revering back you'll feel much, much, much.  Like it's much better to talk.  Great

[Greg]: Anyway, so the archives is the kind of (inaudible 0:07:00.1) as I have been calling it because it's kind of a wooden structure.  It extends a set of stairs that go outside of the gallery seemingly to nowhere besides the window.  One of the pictures I sent shows this mysterious stairs that I discovered when I arrived here.  So we continue the stairs inside the gallery.  Kind of a little (inaudible 0:07:25.8).  Anyway, inside this wooden structure there are publications and as I said that, I mentioned that I brought those here, are some of them were created for the project by people here in New Zealand, people in New York.  Each one is from (inaudible 0:07:47.6), which is actually brilliant.  So there are a number of things going inside the space.  So forget the images, you can take a look at some of that.  

One of the publications for example is by (inaudible 0:08:02.4) in New York, a Russian artist who lives in New York.  He essentially created a (inaudible 0:08:10.6) looks like it came from the Museum of Modern Art, but in fact is highlights from the collection of of communists artists.  So it has Picasso, of course, (inaudible 0:08:21.5) and a whole slew of artists all done and away that looks precisely like the museum itself, this document.  He also created another fake document that looks real authentic which talks about Stalin embracing the (inaudible 0:08:41.3) as opposed to depress it.  And so it is very sort of funny, but also conscious of engaging twists on what history might have been if the circumstances have played and themselves out differently.  So I think about this part of the project and an archive of (inaudible 0:09:02.7).  And I'm hoping that in this band of that aspect of it, you know maybe the creating of the project again somewhere in the United States so we could add more material to it.  

[Scott]: Uh, yeah, Greg, I'm really interested not by the way.  

[Greg]: Well it certainly connects to the plausible Artworlds (inaudible 0:09:37.2) maybe more through history them through alternative contemporary (inaudible 0:09:44.7).

[Scott]: Yeah.

(Loud background noise & foreign language speech)

[Greg]: Okay, I hear you now talk because you're going through.

[Scott]: (Laughing).  Yeah just to let you guys know Greg, both you and Olga have your audio on at the same time still.  I definitely don't want to be labor that because it's still working but it would be a lot easier for you probably.  

[Greg]: For some reason we can't seem to turn her, we got her mute on.

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Scott]: Okay, can we just do a second of tech support?  Um, basically there's a little window that pops up that says "conference call".  Once you are, really once you are in Skype at all there is a little window that pops up that says "conference call" and you can see the other people inside the call.  Somewhere in there.

[Greg]: Yeah, I don't see that.

[Scott]: Hmm.

[Greg]: But I can see that you can hear me through her computer even know the mute is on.  Let me try system preferences.  

[Scott]: Well does it say it "call on mute"?  What you can do is, there should be a callat the top of your screen and you should be able to see "mute".

[Greg]:   Okay, I solved it a different way.

[Scott]: Okay.

[Greg]: I just went into the system preferences and turned her volume down for some reason, even though what was on mute, it was still working.  

[Scott]: Okay, gotcha.  Technical.  Okay great (laughing) back to content.  Thanks. Yeah, perfect.  So yeah, Steven suggested that maybe the BaseKamp space could be an interesting place to, for the United States version or for one of the versions.  We should definitely talk about that.

[Greg]: yeah, let's talk about it.  You know, definite, I think it would be perfect.  I was born in Philadelphia so it would be really interesting to sort of explore some kind aspects of the history.  I used to work at the state hospital there, which was locally known as by Bilberry and completely demolished the building.  So I have my own set of entwined history with the space of that city

[Scott]: could you tell us some more about the histories themselves?  Or about the different examples of these "what if" scenarios?

[Greg]: yeah, I have another project by Jeffrey Schuler, who is a cinema study faculty member at Berkeley University as well as a filmmaker.  Jeffrey and I have known each other a long time and we're in a reading group together in New York in the eighties.  His project is a series of "what if" movie quotes by Sergey Eisenstein.  As if Eisenstein had completed this Hollywood movie he was once going to make and it didn't happen. Actually, one of the images that I sent you and I think to upload it shows this movie.  It's basically capital, which Alexander (inaudible 0:13:23.6) has also recently done a version of.  So that's one of the projects.  

More recently I'm developing one last" what if" project here and I asked people in New Zealand from Wellington what the general strike had taken place back in the turn of, what was it there really massive sort of strike here, and actually been considered radical political change.  You know, what kind of present would we be living in this, which is the capital city and the sea of the government, how would the architecture be different?  How would (inaudible 0:14:09.7) rights be different?  Gender issues?  And so people are constructing "what if" (inaudible 0:14:15.8) from now and make that into one final booklet.  And maybe I can share some of that with you once I get back a little bit further a long (inaudible 0:14:26.4).

[Scott]: Uh, yeah.  Please do.

(Loud background noise)

[Steven]: Oh yeah, Steven?

[Greg]: The project...

[Scott]: Oh, I'm sorry.  Go ahead Greg.  We can try...

[Greg]: I'm not sure, I think we lost the connection from you to me.  Maybe you can still hear me?  Can anybody hear me?

[Scott]: Oh yeah, we can hear you really well.  We were just these images while you were describing them.  Not to leave you hanging there (laughing).

[Greg]: the other project without another book store called (inaudible 0:16:16.3) and a particular project I created one of sort of a garage kit miniature projects that I like to do.  I took a book on landscape of New Zealand, which you can imagine the landscape here is extremely dramatic and really a big part of some of the cultural the imaginary of the country, and of course if you've seen the Lord of the Rings films you've seen actually some of the local imagery which is where a lot of that was shot.  But, I took a book of photographs on the landscape and then began to do kind of an archeological dig within the book.  I believe I sent a couple of those images as well.   

[Scott]: I like the Moma communist highlights.  So what's interesting is that how conceivable is it that a show like this would happen?

[Greg]: I think it was interesting kind of genesis.  I t was supposed to take place maybe a year earlier and then some things came up that made it impossible to happen.  I think that the idea here was that I was supposed to collaboration, it was unclear what the collaboration would be.  In an ideal world, I would have come here and maybe spent three or four weeks working with people and then produce an exhibition.  That wasn't really possible in terms of the timing and the money that was involved.  And so I had to come up with a kind of framework in which people could kind of plug in and collaborate in a way that was actually not that unlike what we did with (inaudible 0:18:16.8) history where we had a structure which was we create a sign about an unknown history.  And, you have certain dimensions you have certain specifications for that project.  But you are free to kind of work autonomously within that framework.  And that was more or less what I adopted here.   Imagine a future that hasn't happened and create a document for it.  That was more or less the dimension, the sort of parameters of what people could do.  

So, this is how this project came about and I think it's not been maybe 100% successful in terms of the local artists getting into it, but they are beginning to do that now.  But it's been sort of successful with (inaudible 0:19:12.5) particularly.

Oh, sorry Steven.  I meant imagine a future that hasn't happened that was, you know, the sort of limitations for the project itself.  That was the parameters for the project itself.

[Scott]: Gotcha.  Yeah.  I mean, it's incredibly appropriate.  At least from our point of view.  What's interesting is that when we first started talking about Plausible Artworlds as a general direction of looking at, I don't know, just looking at the different kinds of weird like half starved or untapped possibilities for creating cultural environments.  Or creative cultural environments.   We were looking a lot at fiction at first. A lot more than it turns out we've been doing since then.  I think maybe because we keep finding people that have actually started experiments of different kinds, you know, and have a sort of a vibe for the plausibility of those, you know, maybe, I don't want to say (inaudible 0:20:23.6) but you know, fledgling initiative and experiments.  But, to me, and I think to Steven too, and a bunch of other people involved or interested, you know, what's plausible and you can still argue if something is plausible if it hasn't happened.  Or kind of tease out its implausibility or its plausibility and that's part of what makes it so interesting. It's, you know, it could change at any point and maybe with a few differences, a world event or something unforeseen.  There's so many, there's kind of, I don't want to say a butterfly effect, but there are so many triggers.  So many trigger chains that can happen from any event.

[Greg]: Absolutely.  Yeah.  Well, I think what interested me here, and I think you're project was certainly one of the streams that kind of flow into this as well as the yes men publications recently and other projects.  What interested me here was because I'd done all this research into actual histories that didn't' seem to have a future, at least in terms of institutional proper kind of art.  I wanted to think about what would have happened had some of those now mostly overlooked histories been more recognized or had been more successful.  For example, the art workers Coalition in New York in the early 1970s, late 1960s made all kinds of demands on The Museum of Modern Art and other museums.  Some really interesting sort of proposals for example, suggesting that the museums actually provide health care and other social security to artists.  That there are galleries opened up for women artists, for minorities, that living artists have more rights over their work.  Where it's shown, how it's shown, how it's repaired and most of all getting some kind of numeration if the work is sold a second time.  All of this really didn't come about.  All of this was lost, except for one small change that took place in museums and that was that they created free nights.  Artist Coalition demanded that the museums be open for free.  The only thing that happened was that the museums had created one night that was free for people and other museums had the same thing.  So we have that tradition today.  What's really ironic in New York is that Target Corporation has taken to branding Free Night so that if you go there on Friday evening, to the Museum of Modern Art and see their logo all over the place, and yet people really don't know that it's the Artist's Coalition who generated this free night in the first place.

So, getting back to what I was talking about with the Imaginary Archive, what if the Artist's Coalition actually in fact had actually been successful?  How would the Museum o f Modern Art institution change?  What would have taken place?  What kind of institution might it have become?  Would that new institution actually then also gone through a transformation and become, in a sense, just sort of problematic?  Let's say, The Museum of Modern Art, after all these years.  These are some of the questions that I want to raise for the project.  In other words, I don't see the change in the future as being necessarily instantly positive.  I think it can also have some kind of (inaudible 0:24:22.4) and I think (inaudible 0:24:23.3).  And, I think someone is here.  Greg.  Is that GAAG?  Gorilla Art Action Group?  That was one of the spinoffs from Artist's Coalition.  They were involved in, for example, they carried out a number of actions in lobbies of museums against the war.  Perhaps most notoriously, they one of the Board of Directors' fancy dinners, the group along with Lucy Piccard and others, released thousands of cockroaches into the museum and upset the dinner.  The members of Gorilla Art Action Group were actually banned from the museum for many years.  Although one of them now ironically works there today.  These are some of the sort of convolutions that I was hoping people would sort of address.  I think that to some degree, that's starting to happen.   

[Scott]: Greg, so in the Dark Matter Archives, it's kind of a different direction.  I mean, it is right?  In the sense that there may be fiction inside.  There may be fictional projects inside of the Dark Matter Archives, the actual archive material.  But the material itself are all things that have really actually happened on some level right?  I mean, the archive itself is made to be, it's sort of mining things that were invisible in a way whereas the Imaginary Archives are sort of mining our minds.  Kind of what we, are, our collective desires or interests or these, um...

[Greg]: I didn't catch the rest of that.

[Scott]: Yeah, that's because I had a brain aneurysm.  Yeah.  They may be more ironic.  Sort of, these fictional works have a lot of cultural critique in them but also maybe some desire in there too, you know?   I guess I was just thinking that, I'm not really trying to say anything brilliant.   I guess I was just asking because we're now talking about Gorilla Art Action Group and you know, you're talking about these other examples and a lot of that stuff is in the Dark Matter Archives.

[Greg]: That is correct.

[Scott]: I can imagine. I mean, you can probably go on for twelve hours straight just about describing stories from these projects from the archive.

[Greg]: Absolutely.  Absolutely.  I mean, I have collected a lot of these histories and know a lot of these people are sort of knowledgeable about them.  It's not as much of an unknown history as it was when I began this kind of research.  Although, it Artworker's Coalition has become well known, there's probably dozens and dozens of other groups that remain pretty much in the dark, who were just as interesting but continue to be unknown.  I think that's kind of the project that is going on.  I wouldn't want to see an imaginary kind of fictional or para-fictional kind of project completely overtake the literal history in any way.  That's not the intention.  It's more to stimulate a question about history itself and the nature of remembering.  I think this is something that the group Rep History actually managed while it was at its best to do.  It wasn't that it simply put up site specific signs talking about histories that people didn't know about.  It did that.  That was part of it.  For example, marking the site of the first slave market in New York City, or in New York or Old New Amsterdam at the time.  Or perhaps marking where all famous abortionists had their offices.  Those are things we did and it was like you could walk by and discover something you knew very little about.   But what we did that was most interesting and successful was allow those histories, that past, to disturb the present.  Make some kind of disturbance in the everyday contemporary.  That happened particularly when Mayor Giuliani tried to stop several art projects from taking place, it was history itself.  This kind of other archive (inaudible 0:29:23.0) different city where something that just couldn't be tolerated in the new sort of gentrified and obnoxious city that New York has become.  I think some of that is what is the relationship to this notion to the imaginary archive.  To think of the archive itself as kind of politically unsettled bit of information that can (inaudible 0:29:48.7) into the present.

[Scott]: Yeah, Steven was just asking or just sort of mentioned something that was on my mind.  This isn't fiction of escape here in anyway.  I mean, it might be (laughing).  There might be an element of escape or of temporary escape into something.  I don't know if escape is really right.  There's an imaginary that can be fulfilling in its own right in a way, but, it definitely seems there is an interest in disrupting the present.  For sure.  I think that's what Steven is mentioning is you know, that maybe there's not that much difference between certain non-fiction documentation and some of these fiction projects in that sense.  What do you think Greg?

[Greg]: I think that absolutely.  I mean, the way we read history is constantly being read through the imaginary in the present.  It's also being read through sort of the ideology that people participate in the construction of the past.  So, I think these terms like "actual" and sort of "imaginary" are very fluid in many cases.  Obviously, we construct the notion of the past that we use in the present and that's of course what nations do all the time and what polictal parties do all the time.  Why shouldn't, what I sometimes refer to as, the Dark Matter construct its own concept of history or perhaps multiple histories?

I think to answer Steven's question, why shouldn't Dark Matter construct its own history since there was an argument against it.  It would be that history would pose itself sort of the correct narrative, the proper reading of the past.  But I'm sure that Steven and I would both agree that certain ways of narrating history could actually disturb the very concept of historical correctness itself.  And would begin to sort of rethink the very nature of the way history is written.  That's sort of the ideal.  My hope, for example, the book which I just posted a link for, is not that it's going to fill in the areas of art history that we don't know about.  That would be kind of a (inaudible 0:32:48.2) that I'm supposed to be somehow showing people the histories that aren't known.  As if I'm some sort of spelunker in a cave, you know.  My idea is that, and it's not so different from I'm sure, Steven's and others, is this way of thinking about history actually disturbs proper readings of history.  The way history has gone about being constructed, it actually challenges the very notion of how the archive is used and interpreted.

[Scott]: Exactly.   It's not about really bringing this stuff into (inaudible 0:33:30.1) of history, right?  I mean, that's kind of the thing that people say to us all the time too.  It's pretty annoying, actually.  It makes me feel like, it's kind of like imagining what we're involved with.  When we reach out to other people, it's not an attempt to join in this massive kind of gold rush of curatorial head hunting.  Like "hey, let's go to the farthest reaches of the world and find the people you've never seen before and aren't we so wonderful because we've uncovered this special thing and we're inserting this into history".  It's not that.  And I feel like Greg, with your project, my sense and one of the reason's I've always been so excited about it since knowing, the first time you wrote about the ideas about Dark Matter, is that...  I don't know.  It's just a very powerful metaphor.  Um, it's not, I think it's extremely challenging to ideas of what history is and why we even call it that.  Why we give so much weight to this.

[Greg]: Yeah, well obviously, this metaphor Dark Matter, it has its limitations, but it's been useful in the sense that Dark Matter has an astronomical concept.  It suggests that most of the universe is physical, it's non-reflective.  Some kind of energies, some kind of mass that's unknown.  Without it, the standard model (inaudible (0:35:07.8) proposes that the universe would fly apart.  It would just fly apart into a void in space.  So, it's an essential anchor of gravitational pull and at the same time it's an unknown.  So that kind of works very well with research and the history of (inaudible 0:35:28.3).  They form the majority of cultural production of the present but they are unseen.  They also anchor the mainstream of the artworld. The one big difference between the two metaphors right there is while scientists are desperately looking for what dark matter is, carrying out experiments, most (inaudible 0:35:59.3) art historians (inaudible 0:36:03.2) the dark matter of (inaudible  0:36:08.4).

(Background noise on Greg's end)

[Scott]: Alright, yeah Greg.  So, can we try that troubleshooting thing again?  I guess my question is, if you and Olga are sitting side by side or in the same spot maybe you guys could share the same audio one way or the other.  Through her mic or yours.  That's what we often do.  Like for instance, we have three people with laptops here right now, but two of them have their, aren't even joined on the audio chat because we can just share.  If we did that, it would be kind of reverby.  So...

Anyway, just suggesting maybe rearranging chairs or something if that could help.

[Greg]: Okay, we found the problem.

[Scott]: Okay, cool.  It's just tech set up.  So, yeah, you were just... Would you mind just repeating that last part again because I think it kind of got blogged out for people?

[Greg]: What I was saying is unlike the scientific exploration of what dark matter is and the search for what dark matter is, the artworld establishment, you might say the curators and the administrators, the art historians.  The people who generally think of themselves as the interpreters or managers of art and high culture.  They're not interested in discovering what dark matter is.  That's a contrast to the scientific community which is desperately trying to figure out what dark matter is, if it exists at all.  Obviously, if the standard model is wrong, maybe there isn't a dark matter.

[Scott]: There might be some difference in opinion out there.  Well, that's actually an understatement.  There's definitely some opinion out there about what would constitute what this metaphor you're bringing up, you know, what would constitute dark matter when we're talking about art practice.  Greg, you know what I mean?  There's on one hand...

[Greg]: Well, I can't.  You'll have to tell me what the differences are since I don't (inaudible 0:39:00.1).

[Scott]: oh, I don't have to know them all, everyone's opinions.  But, I definitely, I'm sure you've heard this as well.  You know, on one hand it's just there's an idea that this could describe, you know, new possible kind of hot artists we haven't discovered yet or something.  For example, you know.  And, you know, whether they're individuals or groups or whatever.  On the other hand, it could describe practices that might not be immediately recognized as art at all, and that might have a difficult time even, being articulated that way under current definitions.  It might be a ground swell of creative activity that is a little bit harder to handle.  Or it might just be, you know, people that are almost, you know, they're just ready to be discovered.

[Greg]: Okay, you're breaking up a little still in your audio.  It sounds like there are some other problems with the audio if I'm reading the script of it.  I think what you're saying is that the dark matter concept could be used to describe artists in waiting.  Waiting to become successful

[Scott]: Yeah, exactly.  I mean, I've heard this.  People try to get their heads around a concept like this that's thrown out there.

[Greg]: Well, I think if you read some of the essays I've written and when you read the book you'll see that's not, let me use the word plausible, interpretation of the way I'm presenting this idea.  I mean, essentially, if you said there would be three kinds of dark matter.  Let me put this schematically in cultural terms.  One would be artist groups such as Artworkers Coalition, who we spoke about.  Who had remained kind of hidden and sort of absent from the historical narrative.  But groups of people who sort of organize around and own redundancy, to use the term that you like to much Scott, recognizing that they are sort of structurally already failed in terms of the artworld.  And simply sort of addressing the politics of that kind of production from the outside margins.  That's the smallest group of dark matter that I talk about.  It's the one that interests me the most because it's the one that's the most self consciously politically aware, but in the smallest (inaudible 0:42:12.1).  If there is a dark matter universe.  

The largest section would be informal artists.  The people that maybe (inaudible 0:42:19.6) would have thought of as artists who could have actually been artists but never had the opportunity.  People who continue to do all kinds of informal art work totally for the sake of doing it for pleasure.  All of which are becoming suddenly much more visible curiously, thanks to internet technology.  And, I think more visible in interest to the business world.  So, we have all kinds (inaudible 0:42:49.2) around how the lines of professionals and amateurs have completely reshaped in a sense, capitalism.  That's another whole discussion.  But, imagine that sort of informal productivity as a kind of dark matter because many of those people actually, are directly tied into the economy of the art world.  Who takes art classes?  Who pays the salary for many, many people who teach art?  Who buys art supplies, thus supporting the professional manufacturing of art supplies from a few art professionals?  There's lots of ways of looking at it.  Who buys art magazine subscriptions, museum subscriptions?  Many of it is done by people who imagine themselves as amateurs or informal artists.

There might be a third component, and this is an interesting one in that most artists who are trained as artists, most professional artists who go to art school are basically failed before they even graduate.  They're structurally failed.  They can't possibly succeed because it's not possible for everyone to succeed in the way the art world is structured now.  Not everyone work can be galarized.  So, in a sense, the question is, what role do they play in the economy of high art?  And that's a question of course that you could answer quickly by referring to Marx's idea of the army of the unemployed, but it doesn't completely work in this situation for two reasons.  The classic Army of Unemployed is there to help lower the price of production, actually, the price of the commodity of labor itself.  So if you're working in a particular industry and most people are unemployed, you're fear that you might be replaced by one of them lets you accept a lower wage for the work.  In the art world, it's a little different.  The people who really are successful actually the value of their work is increased by the Army of the Unemployed.  That would be the price of the work itself.  

Steven, are you off line or are you just lost with what I'm saying?

[Scott]: Steven has actually been dropped from the call, we're actually just adding him back.

[Greg]: Okay.  So, I was making sort of a long...

[Scott]: It was really good Greg.  Oh, sorry.  Just saying it's really good to hear your descriptions. Okay, we'll add Heather back as well.

[Greg]: I think Greg Scranton's work is great.  I love that.  I wish I had that, I could have used that in my book.

[Scott]: (laughing) totally.  Nice one Greg.

[Greg]: So, I'll just wrap up this last point that the other way that the Army of Unemployed is quite different in the art world, is actually most artists who come out of art school train as professional artists.  Inevitably structured to fail in every league, continue to support the art world and reproduce it. They have to.  What they do is even when they're complaining about the art world, for their gossip at parties, whatever, they're helping to reproduce its system.  But of course, they're also talked into it in more ways than once which includes teaching art, buying magazines, going to museums, all those things that support the art world.  What you might say is a (inaudible 0:46:35.5) concept would be embrace your redundancy.  Embrace the fact that you are structurally going to fail and begin to sort of use that as a point of liberation.  Understand that it's a kind of freeing thought and go on to organize yourself that gallerizes your production without the gatekeepers of the art world necessarily having to sort of stamp your work with their approval.  And I think that gets back to the artist (inaudible 0:47:08.0).  I think in one way or another, whether it's conscience or not, that's exactly what they're doing.  They sort of accept the idea that they're not going to participate in this kind of gallarization.  And they try to discover self gallarizing, whether it's through politics or social engagement, or whatever.  That's a little bit more about the dark matter idea (inaudible 0:47:34.4) why artists who have not yet been discovered is not quite the right interpretation for what I see.

[Scott]: Yeah, absolutely.  And you wouldn't say Greg, that when you say that they must reproduce this, you wouldn't say that each individual must reproduce this for themselves, I would guess.  Just that for the system to exist as it is, it must be reproduced by the individuals who maybe don't really see any benefit for not doing that.  It seems to be all the benefits in the world, promised in a way.  Or at least tentatively promised if you do.

[Greg]: I'm just adjusting Olga's set.

(Loud background noise)

[Male group member]: Can you hear him?

[Scott]: Yeah, barely.  I don't know if what I said came through.

[Greg]: Okay, I'm back.

[Scott]: Okay, great.

[Greg]: I'm sorry.  Could you just repeat your last question?

[Scott]: Yeah, um, at one point during this, and I really grasp, I mean I really I think I have a pretty firm idea of what you mean.  By the way, with my comment earlier about how this can be misinterpreted, I don't necessarily mean by people who carefully read what you write (laughing).  You know, more so, most ideas are not passed around by people who carefully read texts.  They're just sort of notions that kind of get spun through word of mouth.  Sort of oral history in a way, kind of contagious thoughts.

 Anyway, I really think it's important to hear someone like you elaborate about this out loud and talk about it because it's the way a good number of people really get their information.  And feel like they can really grasp it, and there is less chance of it getting lost because there is a greater chance of them finishing listening than finishing reading your book.  This is sad, maybe, but probably true.  So I'm psyched about it and I guess there was just one point in what you said and before we get onto these kind of long questions here that are being typed out, you were saying that artists who are part of this group are not gallerized yet, they must reproduce the system.  And I get the sense that what you mean isn't that they must reproduce it for themselves but that for the system to exist it must be reproduced by them.  And they or we or whoever, may not necessarily be aware or have any real incentives to not reproduce it.  But yet, there seem to be all the incentives in the world promised or tentatively on offer when you do.  So how to get passed that for people who are going through art school and trying t6o get their heads around what world they want to live in or even just what kind of life they want to have themselves.  And how they can position themselves in whatever system is currently out there.  Not being a teacher myself, but having been in that realm too, I can see it being hard to convey that information and get the conversation about that going in a way that is really productive.  So, anyway, that's not really a question it's more of a statement of curiosity and I'd be interested to hear what anyone thinks about that.  Maybe as we address these other questions that are coming up.

[Greg]: Yeah, I totally concur with what you're saying.  But, you know, it's going to require peoples' minds being shaken up a bit in how they participate or reproduce a system that structurally locks them out the rewards that it holds out, as you say.  Which seems to really sort of plentiful.  And of course, people do actually cross over and grab the brass key, there's no question about that.  It's just that the point of view of the structured system can only be over a small number of people.  So, what would sort of full employment in the art world look like?

[Scott]: You know, or maybe.  I don't know.  I was just going to say or maybe it's not necessarily a good idea to shoot for full employment in the art world but to see these different fields of activity that could be called art worlds ad being other realms to help kind of pinch hit and fulfill some of those needs.  I think Michael has a question or wanted to...  Oh, my mistake.  I'm jumping the gun here.

Anyway, did that come through at all or is the audio just crap?

[Greg]: No, we're getting most of it.

[Scott]: Okay.

(Loud background noise)

[Michael]: Hi, this is Michael at BaseKamp.  I'm really intrigued by this idea of what full employment could look like if all artists were sort of employed in their field.  A couple things that sort of come to mind as, maybe certain moments such as the WPA maybe being some sort of attempt at something like that.  Or artist placement groups.  I'm wondering.   I'm trying to imagine what that would look like.  I'm curious about your thoughts.

[Greg]: Well, I kind of agree with Scott in that the idea of full employment in the art world might be maybe more (inaudible 0:55:06.2) than realistic.  Maybe what I was meaning was that artists could take responsibility to sort of collectively represent themselves in a way that could provide numeration for all those who participate in the art world but don't receive any of its benefits.  In other words, to begin to really think about collectively trying to develop (inaudible 0:55:33.7) security and full participation from people who are doing creative work which maybe extends even beyond professional artists at this point.  We have to begin to rethink the notion of value cultural production.  That seems to me what many of us, Steven I know, and others have been interested in for some time.  I don't know if that's an answer but I don't think APT would be the model.  Although, I find it very interesting.  Excuse me, I mean APG.   What I do think is that so many artists today could take greater advantages of these new technologies to begin to try to in sense, create some other system of (inaudible 0:56:32.9) for each other.  A kind of peer to peer art world, we'll call it.  And you know, maybe this economic crisis, which is only really beginning to effect contemporary art, maybe it will shake some things up and open up some possibilities for another way of gallerizing peer to peer art worlds.  Gallerizing artistic practice.

[Chris]: Hello? Can you hear me?

[Greg]: Hi Chris, yes.

[Chris]: Yeah, I was just saying that some of the artists might not want full employment.  Some of them might not be taking it seriously or just be doing it for the heck of it or something like that, you know?  That might not be their main interest.

(Inaudible comment from background)

Yeah, (inaudible 0:57:30.9)

[Greg]: I'm sorry.  I missed the first part.

[Chris]: That they might not be interested in having full employment for the artists.  Some of them might be.  

[Greg]: I'm not sure who you're talking about.

[Chris]: Well, some of them might...

[Greg]: You mean the artists? Some artist or some not artists?

[Chris]: The artists.  Or some of the people that we would consider artists.

[Greg]: I don't think that forced employment is a good idea if that's what you mean.

[Chris]: Yeah, yeah.  It's counterproductive.  Okay.

[Scott]: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

[Greg]: I think... No go ahead.

[Scott]: Well, I think I was just going to state the obvious.  Those ideas of slacking, they sort of sometimes brush up against a sort of focus on labor gaining work for everyone.  It's interesting because often there are similar goals on a high level.  But on a level for the individuals involved, there are differing motivations.

[Greg]: Right.

(Loud background noise)

[Scott]: Greg, that's a fantastic idea.  

[Greg]: How about if we do that after we do the Imaginary Archive.

[Scott]: Yeah, maybe at the same time.  Maybe the boot camp can sort of be maybe compulsory voluntary to help put the show together.

[Greg]: Absolutely.  Or we could tell all the artists that they're going to go on a residency and when they get there, lock the door and make them start.

[Scott]: That's kind of what we do already (laughing).  No, I'm just kidding.  We're actually the only ones who work our (explicative 1:00:14.7) here.  Everyone else just slacks off.

[Greg]: No, I don't think so.  I think artists work really, really, really hard all over the place.  You know, it's just incredible.  You're working all the time.  You're working 24/7 and basically you're working in your sleep.  It's the way, of course, a lot of precarious workers in sort of knowledge industries now live.  It's like you're constantly tethered to the electronic office, to the turning out creative solutions for problems.  The system has mined itself deep into our psyches.

(Background noise)

[Scott]: So, Olga.  This is probably as good of time as any to just quickly mention this as a side note.  When Greg and Steven and Jato, the crew was over in Beirut, I didn't get a chance to mention that at all.  About the potential project and recording, so I hope that you've been able to connect.  But if not, maybe it would be good to just mention to you guys, Greg and Steven, that there might be some interesting connections although he's doing something with Efflux.  Maybe we could either talk to Anton or just talk to... One way or the other, try to make some connections.  For example, I think Olga would like to do some kind of a project.  Yeah, anyway, maybe we could talk after this about opening some communication channels about that.

Anyway, more on that later.

[Greg]: I just sent a little excerpt, actually, a quote from Chris Anderson of Wired Magazine talking about this concept of (inaudible 1:03:15.5).  FYI.

(Loud background noise)

[Scott]: Okay, Olga.  I'll try to type it up in a bit.  Not to derail this conversation.

So, yeah.  Um.  So Greg, so far how do you feel about how the project has been received in New Zealand?  Have you been able to talk to a number of younger artists or other groups that might be there?

[Greg]: Yeah, it's gone well so far I think.  What I can tell is I've had two radio interviews involving the project and people would ask me some very interesting questions.  People in the book store and the library were very open to the project.  I think it's a little bit odd a new experiment for the people here.  Both having someone in residence from so far away, at least for this particular alternative space.  I also think that many of the artists here are not as publically engaged with ideas as many of us are in Europe and the United States and so that's been kind of a new phenomena for them.  But I work with some great people.  One of them is an artist name Mary Hewitt and Mary's helped me construct the archive.  She went and got me recycled wood and helped me put it together.  But he also does really interesting work.  Actually, not so different from (inaudible 1:05:33.5) work in some ways.  He's working on a video project now about sites where the Maury encountered the colonists, the European colonists (inaudible 1:05:47.5) and he's kind of reviving that history of this video.  He also created a publication to that effect, which is in the archive itself and I think I have some images on my Facebook.

I think that we lost our connection.  Can you hear me Scott?

[Scott]: Yeah Greg, we can hear really well.

[Greg]: Okay.  So, I think, overall, the (1:06:37.9) been good although I think they've been a little bit puzzled of what it's all about.  Although I think they're starting to get into the spirit of it quite a bit.

So, at this point Scott, it might be better for us to move on (inaudible 1:07:17.0) here.

[Scott]: Oh hey Greg, um, I think you guys traded now all of a sudden.  Now Olga's audio is on and yours is off.  No actually, did you drop from the call?  I think so.  Let me try adding you back.

[Greg]: We lost you for a minute there.

[Scott]: Okay, there you go.  I think we dropped you from the call accidentally because of the connection.  Has anyone else, well, anyone that can hear us, not been dropped?  We'll ask in text.  But yeah, okay, great.

I'm definitely interested in what Steven just said (inaudible 1:08:14.7) just asked about as well.  

[Greg]: What?  I'm trying to find it.

[Scott]: Let's see.  7:40 pm, oh wait, that's a different time for you.  It starts of "Greg, are you in cahoots with..."

[Greg]: I don't see Steven's comment, sorry.

[Scott]: We'll repaste it real quick.

(Loud background noise)

[Greg]: Someone asked me, I'm not sure who.  Is this you Scott?  About Souly and about Anna?

[Scott]: That was a question that Steven asked.  I was just curious if you had seen it or what you thought too.

[Greg]: Yeah.  There both people that I've worked with in different ways.  Anna certainly contributed to the book as well as I have recorded her extensively in some places.  I'm not directly involved in their archive projects but maybe that's something that can actually come about.  That'd be great.  So, I think that'd be fantastic Steven.

Anyway, I think that we need to kind of move on and get back to some work here.

[Scott]: Well Greg, we often end a bit before this two hour mark. That's more than a maximum than a minimum.  So, it's wonderful to be able to connect with you while you guys are over there.

[Greg]: Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity, it's been great.  It's been great to do this for the (inaudible 1:10:38.4) you know, we'll have to do it from the next strange location we end up in.

[Scott]: (laughing) exactly.  Um, yeah, maybe one of the upcoming strange locations can be this weird place called Philadelphia.

[Greg]: That sounds great.  The city of brotherly love.

[Scott]: Indeed.

[Greg]: I forget that W.C. Fields, who was born there, has on his tombstone "at least I'm not in Philadelphia".

(Laughing)

[Scott]: Alright, well Olga and Greg, thanks again.  And to everyone else who has joined us.  Even though a few people just joined us.  We're recording this.  All of these chats.  You know, just hit us up if you want to hear more of this before we get a chance to move through the editing process and all of that.  So, yeah thanks again.  We'll follow up and we'll see you next week.

Later everybody!

[Greg]: Sounds good.  Bye Scott.

END OF TRANSCRIPTION
1:12:05.0
Page |

Backchannel


Chat History with basekamp/$ae9a4a704e5780fb" title="#basekamp/$ae9a4a704e5780fb">Dark Matter Archives and Imaginary Archives http://basekamp.com/about/events/dark-matter-archives-imaginary-archive (#basekamp/$ae9a4a704e5780fb)

Created on 2010-06-22 21:30:50.

2010-06-22

BASEKAMP team: 18:01:25
we received a lot of response from people about tonight's chat, but no one has appeared yet at the baekamp space
BASEKAMP team: 18:01:44
we're all set up with audio too. tested with Greg, and all good
BASEKAMP team: 18:02:06
won't make Greg - or any of you - wait too much, but perhaps give a few mins to let people arrive here?
gregory sholette: 18:04:48
ok I see the window now
BASEKAMP team: 18:05:17
ok great smiley we're just helping channel people in...
BASEKAMP team: 18:05:24
if we can give that a few mins...
BASEKAMP team: 18:05:45
in the meantime, how's everyone doing?
Greg Scranton: 18:06:12
grrrreat! hoping this thunderstorm wil cool things off
gregory sholette: 18:06:13
sounds like a job for a psychic
Greg Scranton: 18:07:11
maybe but I am more of a shamen
gregory sholette: 18:07:50
its been mostly rainly and cold here - between 48 and 65 max (fahrenheit) with short days that end around five pm - essentially its like winter in oregon
BASEKAMP team: 18:08:05
mm sounds unpleasant
stephen wright: 18:08:11
charming
gregory sholette: 18:08:46
its been nasty at night to be honest because there is no indoor heating - but after a couple of nights they provided portable heaters
BASEKAMP team: 18:09:04
so greg S, we're downloading your images - didn't realize clicking that link wsn't all we needed. Took a few xtra mins due to that
Greg Scranton: 18:09:07
I must be a misanthrope because that sounds lovely to me
Greg Scranton: 18:09:30
ha ha I am assuming that I am not "greg s" in this instance smiley
BASEKAMP team: 18:09:40
oh dang. yes...
BASEKAMP team: 18:09:46
greg sh
gregory sholette: 18:09:55
it has its lonely charm I suppose - a bit like being on a whaling ship
Greg Scranton: 18:10:05
it's fine...is TODAY you're birthday at least?  smiley
BASEKAMP team: 18:10:08
hi Paul - added u
gregory sholette: 18:10:42
so Stephen W - what do you make of this recent Supreme Court ruling - our time in Beirut might be open to question even?
stephen wright: 18:10:56
haha!
gregory sholette: 18:11:15
where are you now ?
stephen wright: 18:11:16
aiding and abetting those terrorists by debating with them
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:11:19
but you are not american, are you?
stephen wright: 18:11:43
you mean they won't let me into guantanamo?
BASEKAMP team: 18:11:50
lol
gregory sholette: 18:11:58
i am sure they make special exceptions for special people
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:12:02
yes. greg will do the term for both of you.
gregory sholette: 18:12:12
i snore
gregory sholette: 18:12:48
could be worse than torture
BASEKAMP team: 18:13:57
greg scranton - if you've got a sec, want to batch UL some images to the Flickr page?
gregory sholette: 18:14:32
I sent Scott some images of the project as well as a few of new zealand in and around wellington
BASEKAMP team: 18:15:00
greg yeah  i was going to try to upload in advance, but haven't had a chance yet
BASEKAMP team: 18:15:16
we can look at them here, but will need to get them up somehow...
gregory sholette: 18:15:34
Wellington (pronounced /ˈwɛlɪŋtən/) is the capital city and third most populous urban area of New Zealand. The urban area is situated on the southwestern tip of the country's North Island, and lies between Cook Strait and the Rimutaka Range. It is home to 386,000 residents, with an additional 3,700 residents living in the surrounding rural areas.
BASEKAMP team: 18:15:36
oh, actually -- Greg, I couuld upload the Zip archive to basekamp.com for people to download faster?
gregory sholette: 18:15:53
sure whatever works
BASEKAMP team: 18:15:55
ok, well - time is crawling... and the weather here is the opposite of yours Greg - hot & soupy
gregory sholette: 18:16:23
I don't look forward to those conditions when we return next month
BASEKAMP team: 18:16:39
enjoy the bitter cold while you can!
BASEKAMP team: 18:16:45
ok... so perhaps we can get started with the audio and get more time to chat together
stephen wright: 18:16:54
That is poetry -- the piece on ˈwɛlɪŋtən
gregory sholette: 18:17:28
thank Captain Cook
gregory sholette: 18:17:54
Captain James Cook FRS  RN  (7 November [O.S. 27 October] 1728 – 14 February 1779) was a British explorer, navigator and cartographer, ultimately rising to the rank of Captain in the Royal Navy. Cook was the first to map Newfoundland prior to making three voyages to the Pacific Ocean during which he achieved the first European contact with the eastern coastline of Australia  and the Hawaiian Islands as well as the first recorded circumnavigation of New Zealand.[1]
stephen wright: 18:18:12
he had a way with words, did the Captain.
gregory sholette: 18:18:32
aye he did matey he did indeed
gregory sholette: 18:19:19
but when as Europeans arrived they found another group of people had been here about 1000 years earlier:
stephen wright: 18:19:33
doh!
gregory sholette: 18:19:44


The Māori (commonly pronounced /ˈmaʊri/ or /ˈmɑː.ɔri/) are the indigenous Polynesian people of New Zealand (Aotearoa). They arrived from East Polynesia in several waves at some time before the year 1300,[6] settled and developed a distinct culture. Their language is very closely related to Cook Islands Māori and Tahitian.[7][8]
stephen wright: 18:19:48
that's always a drag
BASEKAMP team: 18:20:10
!!
gregory sholette: 18:20:18
oddly enough this particular group of colonists were somewhat more accomodating to the native population
stephen wright: 18:20:31
hence the All Blacks
gregory sholette: 18:20:44
very popular team here
gregory sholette: 18:22:32
its a law in parliament that the Maori have automatic seats and are permitted to speak their language with an interpreter - imagine if cherokee or mohawk were fully recognized in the congress with set-asides
Greg Scranton: 18:23:05
scott are we no longer doing public chat links? Did that stop working for us for some reason?
BASEKAMP team: 18:23:08
hi Heather smiley
heather hart: 18:23:14
hiiiiiii
gregory sholette: 18:23:36
we can do this via chat if  you prefer
BASEKAMP team: 18:23:47
Greg SC yes - i mean, yes that stopped working. Skype is b0rken on that one... but.. we don't need it!
gregory sholette: 18:24:01
not following you
gregory sholette: 18:24:25
oh the OTHER greg!
stephen wright: 18:24:33
But isn't there some movement in NZ that all the settlers should leave.
BASEKAMP team: 18:24:37
greg sholette -- hhe, yeah. 2 Greg S's here
BASEKAMP team: 18:24:39
lols
BASEKAMP team: 18:25:00
texting is super-wicked-fun, so no harm there... but will be nice to hear your voice too
gregory sholette: 18:25:05
settlers might be the wrong term now but no doubt there is something like that Stephen
Greg Scranton: 18:25:12
Scott, ok. I just wanted to invite folks to this chat and sometimes that public chat link was useful is all but yes don't "need" it. Thx
BASEKAMP team: 18:25:39
i know... it's an annoyance... but... imagine trying to do this at all 15 years ago smiley
stephen wright: 18:25:57
Or skyping with Captain Cook
stephen wright: 18:26:02
can we start?
gregory sholette: 18:26:03
what Olga and I noticed is that many of the less desirable jobs (trash collecting etc..) are held by Maori
stephen wright: 18:26:52
are they a large segment of the overall population?
BASEKAMP team: 18:26:59
BTW Greg (Sholette), we're uploading the images to the site.. will link to them when it's ready for people to download!
gregory sholette: 18:27:04
there also appears to be a Guiliani like policing of younger Maori - controversy now about illegal DNA procurement of young people
gregory sholette: 18:27:45
In 1840, New Zealand had a Māori population of about 100,000 and only about 2,000 Europeans. The Māori population had declined to 42,113 in the 1896 census and Europeans numbered more than 700,000.[26]
gregory sholette: 18:27:46
In many areas of New Zealand, Māori lost its role as a living community language used by significant numbers of people in the post-war  years. In tandem with calls for sovereignty and for the righting of social injustices from the 1970s onwards, many New Zealand schools now teach Māori culture and language, and pre-school kohanga reo ("language-nests") have started, which teach tamariki (young children) exclusively in Māori. These now[update] extend right through secondary schools (kura tuarua). In 2004 Māori Television, a government-funded channel committed to broadcasting primarily in te reo, began. Māori is an official language de jure, but English is de facto the national language. At the 2006 Census, Māori was the second most widely-spoken language after English, with four percent of New Zealanders able to speak Māori to at least a conversational level. No official data has been gathered on fluency levels.



There are seven designated Māori seats in the Parliament of New Zealand (and Māori can and do stand in and win general roll seats), and consideration of and consultation with Māori have become routine requirements for councils and government organisations. Debate occurs frequently as to the relevance and legitimacy of the Māori electoral roll, and the National Party announced in 2008 it would abolish the seats when all historic Treaty settlements have been resolved, which it aims to complete by 2014.[32]
gregory sholette: 18:28:10
I am getting this from wikipedia of course so its probably reasonably accurate but...
BASEKAMP team: 18:28:50
wow, so... just a sidenote
gregory sholette: 18:29:08
all of the signage here is in English as well as Maori (mostly) and many peole of apparent European extraction have at least some Maori vocabulary
BASEKAMP team: 18:29:47
i picked up a *cold* case of beer 30 mins ago - now it's luke warm -- and it started raining here. good thing we're inside online!
gregory sholette: 18:29:51
all in all, its a very different history of colonialism than america and I would guess africa and asia as well
gregory sholette: 18:30:45
but as one person told me this more 'progressive' history was thanks to the english landing here and not the irish prisoners that went to nearby austrailia
gregory sholette: 18:31:13
despite being 50% american-irish I still managed to hold my tongue
BASEKAMP team: 18:31:26
ok everyone! the images from Greg's project in New Zealand are here: http://basekamp.com/about/events/dark-matter-archives-imaginary-archive at the bottom of the page
BASEKAMP team: 18:31:32
under "Attachments"
BASEKAMP team: 18:31:41
everyone DL @ once!
stephen wright: 18:32:09
THe Irish prostitutes and Cockney prisoners never actually ran Australia. The British military ran it.
Greg Scranton: 18:32:27
Scott & Greg should we keep these where they are or would it be ok if I uploaded them to Basekamp's Flickr?
gregory sholette: 18:32:33
but of course the english that came did so in the 1800s as opposed to in america - they had already ended slavery years before the US and perhaps had some lessons in colonial power given to them by the american colonies - so maybe that also plays into this somewhat less harsh approach here?
BASEKAMP team: 18:33:13
greg seems ok w whatever works -- so Greg scranton yes please UL to the Flickr page if u have the inclination -- will be easier for some people smiley
Greg Scranton: 18:33:32
will do!
BASEKAMP team: 18:33:40
ok let's do a phone call -- i'll stat it -- ready?  smiley  smiley  smiley
gregory sholette: 18:33:42
THe Irish prostitutes and Cockney prisoners never actually ran Australia. The British military ran it  - I was citing the person here who defended NZ politics who also FYI happened to be american and british - wonder why she had her opinions as she did!
gregory sholette: 18:33:49
call away
Jessica Westbrook: 18:34:44
: )
Greg Scranton: 18:34:48
good thx
gregory sholette: 18:34:54
how is the sound its a bit fuzzy here
gregory sholette: 18:36:14
interestingly the Maori themeselves managed to exterminate one of the largest birds the great moa when they arrived here only a thousand years ago!
BASEKAMP team: 18:37:40
the project itself is great, whcih is why Basekamp has offered to help with the online component!
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:38:19
i have no audio
Greg Scranton: 18:38:30
uh oh audio in robo-mode
BASEKAMP team: 18:38:33
olga- i thought you were there with Greg? sorry
BASEKAMP team: 18:38:39
let's add you back
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:38:43
yes.
Jessica Westbrook: 18:38:44
we have okay audio here
gregory sholette: 18:38:53
can you hear me - greg sholette?
stephen wright: 18:39:00
I hear you okay
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:03
olga, please mute your audio when you get back on smiley
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:39:10
but i use my own computer.
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:13
ok
Jessica Westbrook: 18:39:18
i do hear typing
gregory sholette: 18:39:19
so I will continue where I left off? greg s
Greg Scranton: 18:39:21
Same images on Flickr as on the Basekamp page http://www.flickr.com/photos/basekamp2010/sets/72157624335549252/
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:22
added you back
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:39:27
sorry, i misunderstoo.
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:34
everyone please mute your audio unless you're speaking -- thanks!
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:47
(please do feel free to speak though)
gregory sholette: 18:39:59
now I am hearing myself
Greg Scranton: 18:40:16
wooden structure: http://www.flickr.com/photos/basekamp2010/4725251591/in/set-721576243355...
stephen wright: 18:40:18
Olga needs to mute her microphone
BASEKAMP team: 18:40:33
greg, yes Olga needs to turn off her audio -- there is a mute button "||" in the bottom left of the audio window
BASEKAMP team: 18:40:46
you're getting double smiley
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:40:58
i did that!
Greg Scranton: 18:42:05
outside stairs http://www.flickr.com/photos/basekamp2010/4725251629/in/set-721576243355...
BASEKAMP team: 18:42:17
nice
Greg Scranton: 18:42:18
(and I am just guessing these are the corresponding images btw
stephen wright: 18:44:25
Maybe Basekamp would be the suitable place for that
Greg Scranton: 18:45:09
posted file Screen shot 2010-06-22 at 6.44.58 PM.png to members of this chat<files alt=""><file size="11769" index="0">Screen shot 2010-06-22 at 6.44.58 PM.png</file></files>
Greg Scranton: 18:45:23
just posted a screen shot of the mic icon
BASEKAMP team: 18:46:55
thx gregscranton
Greg Scranton: 18:47:59
Eisenstein: http://www.flickr.com/photos/basekamp2010/4725900242/in/set-721576243355...
BASEKAMP team: 18:48:08
we're loking for that now --- oh, great thx
stephen wright: 18:49:00
the "what if" structure was one of the tropes that Scott and i used to frame the whole plausible artworlds project.
Greg Scranton: 18:49:07
installation shot including Eisenstein et al
Greg Scranton: 18:49:13
http://www.flickr.com/photos/basekamp2010/4725899978/in/set-721576243355...
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 18:52:10
yeah, it was the most elaborate contribution to Greg's project.
stephen wright: 18:53:37
"Imagine a future that hasn't happened, and create parameters for it"
stephen wright: 18:53:49
That sounds P@W-like
stephen wright: 18:54:15
I understand!
stephen wright: 18:55:04
Here's a quote from our introductory essay, with a quote from Vaihinger:



" What-If expresses the basic logic of fiction, which he defines as a superflexible mechanism of the mind for the solving of problems. “What, then,” he asks, “is contained in the as if?”


“There must apparently be something else hidden in it apart from the unreality and impossibility of the assumption in the condition sentence. These particles clearly also imply a decision to maintain the assumption formally, in spite of these difficulties. Between the as and if, wie and wenn, als and ob, comme and si, qua-si, a whole sentence is implied. What, then, does it mean if we say that matter must be treated as if it consisted of atoms? It can only mean that empirically give matter must be treated as it would be treated if it consisted of atoms or that the curve must be treated as it would be treated if it consisted of infinitesimals. There is, then, a clear statement of the necessity (possibility or actuality), of an inclusion under an impossible or unreal assumption.”


Fiction, in other words, enables our understanding to be guided by the effort of subsuming the unknown under the known. Thus the As-If is a kind of relay, forcing the imaginative into a form in order to pry open a broader ranger of plausibilities. It is where the imagination and consciousness overlap, yet where practical purpose (tackling the existent artworld) requires that consciousness remain dominant, such that the imaginative is present in consciousness only as potential, as a still empty, plausible space.
gregory sholette: 18:55:18
A public art project, An Imaginary Archive of novels, brochures, catalogues, pamphlets, newsletters, and other publications and material will infiltrate Enjoy and other Wellington locations during Sholette's residency. Inserted into a number of second-hand bookstores and other public places, this archive moves to present an alternative vision of the realities our society might inhabit, had the world been shaped differently. Sholette explains, that 'the exact content of these "para-fictional" publications including their layout and cover illustrations will be articulated within the processes of the Collaboratorium, but the goal will be to imagine an alternative future in which various artists groups and collaborations successfully changed the culture of Wellington, New Zealand, the region, and the world.'
gregory sholette: 18:55:49
Sholette's residency project takes the notion of collaboration as a living, working material to be uncovered, explored, and put into motion. The project has developed from a series of open calls for participation, and as a result Sholette has been working with artists and collectives in the months building up to the residency. These artists include Danna Vajda (NY), Darra Greenwald & Josh MacPhe (NY), Grant Corbishley (NZ), Matt Whitwell (NZ), Bryce Galloway (NZ), Johan Lundh (NY/Sweden), Lee Harrop (NZ), Malcom Doidge (NZ), Murray Hewitt (NZ), Oliver Ressler (Austria), Yevgeniy Fiks (NY), White Fungus (Taiwan), Maureen Conner (NY), Olga Kopenkina (NY), Jeremy Booth (NZ), Jeffrey Skoller (NY), and Ellen Rothenberg (Chicago).
BASEKAMP team: 18:57:12
back to back texts!
BASEKAMP team: 18:58:22
AWC++
Greg Scranton: 18:58:34
GAG ++
BASEKAMP team: 18:58:48
MoMA --
Greg Scranton: 18:58:56
Basekamp ++
Greg Scranton: 18:59:07
oops yes
Greg Scranton: 18:59:10
sorry about that
BASEKAMP team: 18:59:15
P@W ??
stephen wright: 18:59:31
I'm thinking so
Greg Scranton: 18:59:36
a classic
BASEKAMP team: 18:59:41
loves the cochroaches -- yea
Greg Scranton: 19:00:07
and Jean Toche
Greg Scranton: 19:00:19
oops his famous fight in the foyer of MoMA
Greg Scranton: 19:01:10
lol!
gregory sholette: 19:01:18
among the 13 deamnds by Art Workers Coalition AWC included:
gregory sholette: 19:01:26
Sholette's residency project takes the notion of collaboration as a living, working material to be uncovered, explored, and put into motion. The project has developed from a series of open calls for participation, and as a result Sholette has been working with artists and collectives in the months building up to the residency. These artists include Danna Vajda (NY), Darra Greenwald & Josh MacPhe (NY), Grant Corbishley (NZ), Matt Whitwell (NZ), Bryce Galloway (NZ), Johan Lundh (NY/Sweden), Lee Harrop (NZ), Malcom Doidge (NZ), Murray Hewitt (NZ), Oliver Ressler (Austria), Yevgeniy Fiks (NY), White Fungus (Taiwan), Maureen Conner (NY), Olga Kopenkina (NY), Jeremy Booth (NZ), Jeffrey Skoller (NY), and Ellen Rothenberg (Chicago).  http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O5-ArtWorkersCoalition.html
gregory sholette: 19:01:41
oops sorry did not cut and past correctly
gregory sholette: 19:01:55
among the 13 deamnds by Art Workers Coalition AWC included:
gregory sholette: 19:01:56
‘Museum staffs should take positions publicly and use their political influence in matters concerning the welfare of artists, such as rent control for artists' housing, legislation for artists' rights and whatever else may apply specifically to artists in their area. In particular, museums, as central institutions, should be aroused by the crisis threatening man's survival and should make their own demands to the government that ecological problems be put on a par with war and space efforts.’ The AWC also demanded that museums should show ‘the accomplishments of Black and Puerto Rican artists' and ‘encourage female artists to overcome centuries of damage done to the image of the female as an artist by establishing equal representation of the sexes in exhibitions, museum purchases and on selection committees'. The association soon broadened its scope to include protests against the Vietnam War.
Greg Scranton: 19:01:58
oh awesome I did not know this
Greg Scranton: 19:02:04
wonderful resource
stephen wright: 19:03:57
but fiction and documentation ("non"fiction) are not in opposition here -- it's all about disturbing the present, right?
BASEKAMP team: 19:04:10
a lot of this material is here: http://www.darkmatterarchives.net/archives (the current site, which will be updated again soon)
gregory sholette: 19:04:59
my chapter on REPOhistory in the new book is entitled "History that Disturbs the Present" btw
BASEKAMP team: 19:05:36
right
stephen wright: 19:06:23
Why shouldn't the dark matter construct its own histories? Yes!!
gregory sholette: 19:06:23
Dark Matter: Art and Politics in the Age of Enterprise Culture (Marxism and Culture)                              http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Matter-Politics-Enterprise-Culture/dp/0745327...
Greg Scranton: 19:06:54
"Sign up to be notified when this item becomes available." smiley
BASEKAMP team: 19:07:21
gregscranton - it hasn't been published yet, right?
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:07:28
probably, in the end of this year.
gregory sholette: 19:08:05
the book should be out from Pluto Press in November they tell me
Greg Scranton: 19:08:29
oh I see.
gregory sholette: 19:09:02
I am in the process of proofing the text and collecting images for it so its far along at this stage -
Greg Scranton: 19:09:20
looking fwd to it
BASEKAMP team: 19:10:44
looks like both greg & olga's audio are back up
gregory sholette: 19:10:55
the sound is really breaking up for us down here
BASEKAMP team: 19:10:58
still listening, but - reverb=ing
gregory sholette: 19:11:08
at times it sounds like flocks of birds
gregory sholette: 19:11:33
let me check her settings gain
stephen wright: 19:11:35
Most of the universe is invisible, not reflective, but without that part, the universe would fly apart. so evocative
Greg Scranton: 19:11:44
looks like Olga's audio is pretty hot generally
atrowbri: 19:14:31
audio dead here
gregory sholette: 19:14:32
curiously birds became the dominant animal species in new zealand because there was only one type of mammal - the bat- here until the Maori came with goats a thousand year ago
atrowbri: 19:14:47
call dropped maybe?
atrowbri: 19:15:41
thanks!
BASEKAMP team: 19:15:53
no prob adam
stephen wright: 19:19:28
lost me
BASEKAMP team: 19:19:32
note: the 44 min mark in the recording Greg Sholette talks about the 3 kinds of Dark Matter he'd identified
Greg Scranton: 19:19:34
we should all be so lucky to fish in the morning and critique art in the evening!
BASEKAMP team: 19:19:37
ok, re-adding you
heather hart: 19:19:59
me too please
BASEKAMP team: 19:20:20
okay!
Greg Scranton: 19:20:23
I think it's maybe from german ideology
BASEKAMP team: 19:20:35
talking about the "army of the unemployed"
Greg Scranton: 19:20:50
that's my poor recollection and paraphrasin of course
Greg Scranton: 19:22:30
it was my attempt to connect what Greg was saying about Art School graduates have already failed in a sense and his comments on Marx.  And it is from German Ideology
Greg Scranton: 19:22:30
He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
Greg Scranton: 19:22:35
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm
gregory sholette: 19:22:57
yes Greg - I got that right away and really liked your spin on it!
Greg Scranton: 19:23:44
oh good
gregory sholette: 19:23:58
Product Description

Art is big business, with some artists able to command huge sums of money for their works, while the vast majority are ignored or dismissed by critics. This book shows that these marginalised artists, the 'dark matter' of the art world, are essential to the survival of the mainstream and that they frequently organize in opposition to it. Gregory Sholette, a politically engaged artist, argues that imagination and creativity in the art world originate thrive in the non-commercial sector shut off from prestigious galleries and champagne receptions. This broader creative culture feeds the mainstream with new forms and styles that can be commodified and used to sustain the few artists admitted into the elite. This dependency, and the advent of inexpensive communication, audio and video technology, has allowed this 'dark matter' of the alternative art world to increasingly subvert the mainstream and intervene politically as both new and old forms of non-capitalist, public art. This book is essential for anyone interested in interventionist art, collectivism, and the political economy of the art world.
gregory sholette: 19:24:32
that is the blurb from Pluto about the new book fyi
gregory sholette: 19:25:26
your fading in and out Scott
gregory sholette: 19:26:12
they are like heliotropic flowers - despite being far from the sun they constantly point towards it!
BASEKAMP team: 19:27:15
yep
stephen wright: 19:28:24
I wish I could participate more, but the sound is pretty choppy
Greg Scranton: 19:28:46
I can try to call everyone from here for the last 30 mins if you'd like
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:28:46
i agree.
gregory sholette: 19:28:52
during the WPA and during the 1970s when the NEA was at its peak in the USA there was an attempt to "employ" as many art workers as possible
gregory sholette: 19:29:07
hi Michael
BASEKAMP team: 19:29:08
can u all hear michael?
gregory sholette: 19:29:27
I can hear him but only geting some of it
BASEKAMP team: 19:30:39
michael was metioning examples like the WPA and Artist Placement Group, and interested in what you think full employment by artists *might* look like...
BASEKAMP team: 19:30:46
sounds like you got most of that
stephen wright: 19:31:21
a P2P artworld!
BASEKAMP team: 19:31:30
Kris here also has something to say at the next break
gregory sholette: 19:31:39
hi Kris
BASEKAMP team: 19:31:51
peer to peer model for artists - definitely an interesting idea IMO
gregory sholette: 19:32:03
who does it for the heck of it - that part was lost
gregory sholette: 19:32:13
who is they
BASEKAMP team: 19:32:22
Kris suggests some artists might not be interested in ful employment
gregory sholette: 19:32:41
no labor camps for aritsts!
BASEKAMP team: 19:32:45
LOls
atrowbri: 19:32:46
no work.
Greg Scranton: 19:32:47
lol!
atrowbri: 19:33:25
"we don’t work anymore: we do our time. "
stephen wright: 19:33:25
some "retraining" camps for mainstreamers, as Gustav Metzger suggested
gregory sholette: 19:33:33
there is of course a pleasure artists take from being semi-employed - but I am not just talking about money but also wuffie
Greg Scranton: 19:33:42
no more reality TV shows about the "next great artists" hosted by the bourgeoisie
BASEKAMP team: 19:33:52
wuffie?
gregory sholette: 19:34:05
retraining camps for art workers - we should set one up at basekamp!
gregory sholette: 19:34:16
someone help me with a definition
Greg Scranton: 19:34:22
The Hegemonic Art Studios
stephen wright: 19:34:23
Yes!!
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:34:30
how about this?
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:34:34
http://www.guelman.ru/xz/english/XX22/X2207.HTM
atrowbri: 19:34:45
kopenkina: YES
gregory sholette: 19:34:53
sorry I spelled it wrong:
gregory sholette: 19:34:54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie
Greg Scranton: 19:34:56
ouch
BASEKAMP team: 19:35:05
for sure
BASEKAMP team: 19:35:35
Whuffie is new to me - thanks for that!
Greg Scranton: 19:35:47
boing...boing
gregory sholette: 19:35:52
its a hacker term I think
stephen wright: 19:35:56
Olga, on the same note, here's a great interview with Mladen:
stephen wright: 19:35:58
http://www.voxphoto.com/english/expositions/stilinovic_mladen/stilinovic...
gregory sholette: 19:37:51
‘Now we have armies of amateurs, happy to work for free,’ exclaims Chris Anderson, editor of magazine Wired, one of the early proponents of the networked ‘gift’ economy,

 

Previous industrial ages were built on the backs of individuals, too, but in those days labor was just that: labor. Workers were paid for their time, whether on a factory floor or in a cubicle. Today’s peer-production machine runs in a mostly nonmonetary economy. The currency is reputation, expression, karma, ‘wuffie,’ or simply whim.
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:37:56
great!
Greg Scranton: 19:38:10
Greg do you have a link to that article?
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:38:22
i couldn't hear well what scott said about mladen..
gregory sholette: 19:38:22
so sure Scott - once we are back up north into the hot summer we can discuss this and other ideas
Greg Scranton: 19:38:49
oh I think I found it: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/people.html
atrowbri: 19:39:52
we got dropped again smiley
Greg Scranton: 19:40:12
robo-audio
atrowbri: 19:40:19
hamburger lady
atrowbri: 19:40:37
thx!
stephen wright: 19:40:48
Greg, are you in cahoots with people in other areas who are working on similar archiving projects? I'm thinking of the COnceptualistas del Sur in SOuth America -- people like Suely ROlnik and Ana Longoni amongst others are doing incredible stuff around the alternative histories of political conceptualism
BASEKAMP team: 19:41:05
Olga, I was saying now that Greg & Stephen and you are all on the call - maybe we could open a channel of communication with Anton and whoever else about that Mladen show, and get some cross pollination
gregory sholette: 19:41:13
hi Greg here it is:   ‘People Power Blogs, user reviews, photo-sharing – the peer production era has arrived’, Chris Anderson, WIRED July 2006, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/people.html
BASEKAMP team: 19:41:19
hi George, adding you to the call now
Greg Scranton: 19:41:58
uh oh
BASEKAMP team: 19:42:23
has anyone else been dropped?
atrowbri: 19:42:41
we're here
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:42:48
to Scott -- Anton is going to be a speaker on the CAA panel on 'dark matter' next year.
lga_kop" title="olga_kop">kopenkina: 19:43:03
but we can try to initiate something before that..
stephen wright: 19:43:05
I was referring to Mladen's show in Montreal: Idler: An Artist who invents nothing
BASEKAMP team: 19:43:14
Greg, are you in cahoots with people in other areas who are working on similar archiving projects? I'm thinking of the COnceptualistas del Sur in SOuth America -- people like Suely ROlnik and Ana Longoni amongst others are doing incredible stuff around the alternative histories of political conceptualism
gregory sholette: 19:43:21
Hi everyone - just along these last lines of dark matter and p2p networks here is an excerpt from the new book to end with:
gregory sholette: 19:43:26
The once shadowy archive spills open. Blogs, wikis, mashups, fan edits, numberlesss P2P file sharing programs and free, collaboratively evolving software evince the revenge of the excluded. But De Certeau’s everyday dissident appears on the verge of mutating into something else, something that some neoliberal theorists describe as the networked engine of 21st-century capitalism. ‘Now we have armies of amateurs, happy to work for free,’ exclaims Chris Anderson, editor of magazine Wired, one of the early proponents of the networked ‘gift’ economy,

 

Previous industrial ages were built on the backs of individuals, too, but in those days labor was just that: labor. Workers were paid for their time, whether on a factory floor or in a cubicle. Today’s peer-production machine runs in a mostly nonmonetary economy. The currency is reputation, expression, karma, ‘wuffie,’ or simply whim.  



Still, there are filters. Ways of pruning, delimiting, and enclosing impurities within this social productivity without completely erasing its fecundity. Shortly before the dot.com crash in 2000 a leading oracle of networked culture prophesized that the initial, giddy, ‘protocommercial stage’ of cyberculture was necessary before profits could be realized. According to Wired magazine’s founding editor Kevin Kelly,



The early Internet and the early Web sported amazingly robust gift economies; goods and services were swapped, shared generously, or donated outright – actually, this was the sole way to acquire things online. Idealistic as this attitude was, it was the only sane way to launch a commercial economy in the emerging space. The flaw that science fiction ace William Gibson found in the Web – its capacity to waste tremendous amounts of time – was in fact, as Gibson further noted, its saving grace…In the Network Economy, follow the free.   



There are filters because like all dark matter some of this ‘amazingly robust’ free productivity distributes less commercially desirable offerings. Gifts whose embrace remains suspect including dissident, even poisonous gifts. Right from the start De Certeu’s primordial tricksters began to hack the Internet. Open-source programmers developed free software to compete with privately copyrighted commercial programs, The Yes Men produced mirror-images of the World Trade Organization website that ‘corrected’ its institutional identity; and hacktivist culture-jammers built self-detonating ‘Google bombs’ so that someone searching for the phrase ‘more evil than Satan himself’ would find themselves directed to the website of Microsoft corporation. And yet these tactical games operate in two directions simultaneously. While they provide a means by which the wary and ephemeral fishes of resistance can hide from the panoptic gaze of power, disappearing into some inner fold or temporary autonomous zone from where they can carry out tactical strikes, this same clever mimicry inadvertently projects onto the spectacular screen something that in a moment of panic might be mistaken as an exaggerated menace. Perhaps this is why a deeply compromised government already seduced by the fog of war initially misapprehended the threat presented by Kurtz, Ferrell, and CAE? Like a mistaken encounter with its own doppelganger the state was first startled, then transfixed. Then its disciplinary apparatus drove forward with one objective: to produce a political show trial in which an unnamable threat would not only be given a name, a fearful name, but ultimately compartmentalized, disciplined, and assigned a numbered prison cell. When CAE transformed various insurgent theories – either avant-garde or radical-corporate – into accessible, DIY procedures, and then directed a diffuse, yet unquestionably resistant force towards select, private and governmental targets, it publicly demonstrated its ability to operate within the same nebulous terrain of power that the state now deems its privileged concession to own, lend out, or direct. Authorities compare CAE to terrorists? They reveal their inability to categorize what is unnamable. Kurtz and his colleagues sinned yet a second time and really brought down ‘the man’ when they published manuals explicating how to make use of this counter-knowledge, including its tactics and circuitry, and did so not with the ambiguous idioms of art-speak, but rather with the determined hyper-clarity of the techno-geek. This is where something far more grotesque than a simple return to the past begins to be teased out of an otherwise incomprehensible instance of state censorship. It is a warning aimed as much at the ‘avant-garde’ entrepreneurial spirit of many dot-comers, as it is against a group of interdisciplinary TM interventionists who refuse to stay in their assigned role as isolated cultural workers.
BASEKAMP team: 19:43:34
omg ok
BASEKAMP team: 19:43:49
olga ko great - so sounds like you have the communication alraedy open
stephen wright: 19:43:51
yeah
stephen wright: 19:44:09
I know you know them
BASEKAMP team: 19:44:25
interesting yes
stephen wright: 19:44:34
maybe it could be facilitated
stephen wright: 19:46:21
Greg, sound has been a challenge for me tonight -- but what I've heard has been great
gregory sholette: 19:46:25
by everyone - sorry to end a bit early but its difficult here in this noisy cafe! best - greg
Jessica Westbrook: 19:46:30
thanks!
stephen wright: 19:46:35
good night
Paul Wityenbraker: 19:46:35
thanks
George Wietor: 19:46:38
thanks!
heather hart: 19:46:40
sound dropped but thanks!
BASEKAMP team: 19:46:54
we've just ended the call ---
Jessica Westbrook: 19:47:17
oh hey Paul
Paul Wityenbraker: 19:47:24
HI
BASEKAMP team: 19:47:41
if anyone wants to listen to our recording of tonights chat -- give us a heads up! or leave a comment here http://basekamp.com/about/events/dark-matter-archives-imaginary-archive#... -- you'll automatically get an update when we post the audio
BASEKAMP team: 19:48:40
We really need some podcast closing music!  smiley  smiley
heather hart: 19:48:55
lol
atrowbri: 19:49:41
http://content.onsmash.com/archives/40106
BASEKAMP team: 19:49:59
next week starts a 6-week course on Plausible artworlds with the MFA students from UArts... they'll be joining these weekly potlucks each Tuesday night from here
BASEKAMP team: 19:50:37
adam, playing now...
BASEKAMP team: 19:50:58
ok, so if everyone on the chat clicks that link and hits play... you'll get a sense
atrowbri: 19:51:05
smiley
Jessica Westbrook: 19:51:38
smiley
BASEKAMP team: 19:51:46
adam & jessica, when does P@W start at SAIC?
Jessica Westbrook: 19:52:10
i need to plan classes next month
Jessica Westbrook: 19:52:19
i dont have my head there yet
Jessica Westbrook: 19:52:25
moving in 6 days
BASEKAMP team: 19:53:17
let's work all together (on some level) on an open curriculum
BASEKAMP team: 19:53:36
we're still playing "it's a shame" btw
Greg Scranton: 19:53:41
oh no it's over?
atrowbri: 19:53:45
it's a creat cover
Greg Scranton: 19:53:48
Well thank you all
BASEKAMP team: 19:54:10
Greg, the audio is anyway -- Greg had to roll
Greg Scranton: 19:54:18
gotcha
BASEKAMP team: 19:54:26
ok, another track coming up...
Greg Scranton: 19:54:59
I am running bet basement & 2nd fl...sweaty
BASEKAMP team: 19:55:21
http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/artist/Sleigh+Bells/1210636
BASEKAMP team: 19:56:09
^ this is the next track in our closing intro
BASEKAMP team: 19:56:56
ada & jessica & greg & stephen -- you all got the Google doc for the UArts P@W curriculum right?
BASEKAMP team: 19:57:12
we can also migrate to IRC now that the chat is over
BASEKAMP team: 19:57:17
if you'd like?
Jessica Westbrook: 19:57:31
scott - do you draw?
BASEKAMP team: 19:57:43
in the curriculum? sort of
atrowbri: 19:57:52
hm
atrowbri: 19:57:55
i do not remeber getting it
BASEKAMP team: 19:57:59
i changed it to include .. um.. i forget -- "air drawings"
Greg Scranton: 19:58:05
got it Scott! Looks like a good sturdy skeleton thus far.  Are you looking for feedback, ideas, "curriculum".
BASEKAMP team: 19:58:05
oh, hold on a sec
atrowbri: 19:58:09
the outline?
BASEKAMP team: 19:58:11
greg yes
Jessica Westbrook: 19:58:11
i got the keynote grettttt twittererered
atrowbri: 19:58:11
or more?
BASEKAMP team: 19:58:18
ohh yeah smiley
BASEKAMP team: 19:58:22
keynote is different
BASEKAMP team: 19:58:42
getting googel doc link now...
Greg Scranton: 19:58:53
ready?
Greg Scranton: 19:58:56
About (1/2 of) this course

This course is an extension of an evolving conversation about the plausibility of different kinds of artworlds. The course will attempt to open up more questions, rather than attempting to define or answer anything definitively. Using an open doc like this for the the course outline process itself will help keep the material fresh and open to active engagement.

The 'teachers' and the students of this course are all curious - trying to learn and share what we can from this ongoing research. Everyone can get something out of this and everyone interested can help. Let's get this party started!

About Plausible Artworlds 2010



Plausible Artworlds is a project to collect and share knowledge about alternative models of creative practice. From alternative economies and open source culture to secessions and other social experiments, Plausible Artworlds is a platform for research and participation with artworlds that present a distinct alternative to mainstream culture.



The aim of the project is to bring awareness to the potential of these artworlds as viable “cultural ecosystems” that provide both pedagogical and practical solutions to a range of emergent socio-cultural challenges. We view Plausible Artworlds as an opportunity to discuss the interdisciplinary role of artist as creative problem solver and the expanding notion of what an artworld looks and feels like.



The project currently offers a weekly public potluck hosted at Basekamp in Philadelphia, during which open informal discussions are held with invited artists, writers, curators and anyone interested. The project is also compiling a collaborative publication from research, conversations and projects connecting with the Plausible Artworlds initiative.



Participate



We invite participation by sharing your stories about the Plausible Artworlds you are creating in your own community. We want to know what this artworld looks like, what it smells like and what kinds of impacts it is motivating. Send us text, send us a photo or video and send us your ideas about a Plausible Artworld you wish existed. Propose a project or ask for help on an existing one.



Our plan for this year is in process. We have slots open for our potluck and a collaborative workshop and exhibition space available for use. If you want to get involved, get in touch with us!



• Propose a Potluck Topic or Guest

• Learn how to “tune” in or visit the Basekamp space in person!

• Submit your ideas and stories about a Plausible Artworld

• Start a project at Basekamp



Schedule



    * WEEK 1: Archiving creative culture

    * WEEK 2: Organizational art

    * WEEK 3: Secessions and other social experiments

    * WEEK 4: Open source culture

    * WEEK 5: Alternative economies

    * WEEK 6: Autonomous information production



    

Class group projects

Mondays:

Week 1: Intros, personal and entire P@W project quickly - announce the weekly guest - look at P@W as a living archive for creative culture - begin experimental micro-research-project w students, start with discussion-based air-drawings (collaborate w 1 other person)

Week 2: Weekly topic, look at what organizational art sometimes is, and consider what it might be - open discussion during train ride together to and from the end of the line - continue micro-research project - consider perhaps how to work within the confines of the university, or our day jobs (collaborate w 2 people)

Week 3: Announce weekly guest - discussion about secessions - consider other approaches for experimental research project responses, consider dropping out of school and living on a communal farm (collaborate w 3 people)

Week 4: Presentation of FOSSCON rapid examples (nearly 100 slides and semi-automtic-shotgun-style info saturation on open source @Ws">P@Ws) - consider how to extend or build upon existing research through a rapid micro-project (collaborate w 4 people)

Week 5: Announce weekly guest - bring a gift and exchange ideas or consider alternate compensation for each other's time - expand experimental research project (collaborate w 5 people)

Week 6: Weekly guest is announced & quickly discussed - past weekly experimental research projects are considered in the context of autonomous information production - agree on a form of exchange for knowledges and experiences produced over course of past 6 weeks (collaborate with entire group)



Tuesdays:

Set up a workspace in a given area at BK to be used throughout the duration of the course.



Before each weekly potluck, join improv cooking class - bring and prepare food - culminates w/ feast - collaborate w entire group



White elephant research

the thought is that each week's topic could also have a set of secondary research topics the students can draw from for mini-research projects.

I've adapted these instructions for white elephant gift exchange here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant_gift_exchange#Gameplay



    * All participants draw a number (from a hat, perhaps) to determine their order.

    * The participant with #1 selects a face-down topic card. Each successive participant, in the order determined from the drawing, can either 1) "steal" an already flipped topic card (if there's one they really like) or 2) be adventurous and go for a face-down topic card. If the participant chooses to steal, the person whose topic is stolen now repeats his turn and either 1) steals another person's topic (he cannot immediately steal back the topic that was just stolen from him) or 2) selects a new topic.

    * This cycle of stealing can sometimes continue for a long time, (although we could set a stealing limit per topic per round of 3 or something) until a new topic is chosen, at which point the turn is passed to the participant with the next number from the drawing.

    * Since topics can be stolen, the topic in your possession is not yours until the game is over. However, this is often amended with a rule declaring a topic "dead" or "safe" after it has been stolen a certain number of times (usually three). This helps the process go more smoothly (avoiding, for example, the hypothetical scenario of the same topic being stolen by every successive participant) and limits the disadvantage of being among the first to choose gifts. The game is over once all numbers have been withdrawn from the hat or all gifts are opened
Greg Scranton: 19:59:02
oh yeah! bam!
Jessica Westbrook: 19:59:06
plausible promises
Jessica Westbrook: 19:59:09
june 18
BASEKAMP team: 19:59:16
nice greg - thx!
BASEKAMP team: 20:00:05
keep in mind, this is our syllabus
Greg Scranton: 20:00:19
also just emailed it to AT & JW
BASEKAMP team: 20:00:40
greg.. the google doc link?
Greg Scranton: 20:00:49
yep
Greg Scranton: 20:01:02
well it said "attach as html"
BASEKAMP team: 20:01:05
W to the double 0 to the tt
BASEKAMP team: 20:01:12
mm
Greg Scranton: 20:01:28
oops brb. if u guys are gone when I get back g'nite
BASEKAMP team: 20:01:53
greagscranton++
stephen wright: 20:06:35
This description sounds like a slightly determined kind of artworld already, one premised on gaming, creativity. If we really want them to come up with new artworlds, plausible ones, then we need to give them less direction, no?
stephen wright: 20:06:44
I don't know, I'm tired I guess
BASEKAMP team: 20:07:33
stephen, you mean the White elephant research method idea?
BASEKAMP team: 20:08:40
stephen, gotta step away for a moment - Michael & I need to plan this week - but will be back on in a bit!
Greg Scranton: 20:09:22
nite all
BASEKAMP team: 20:09:38
night gregg!
stephen wright: 20:09:48
nite
BASEKAMP team: 20:10:51
Stephen - let's talk about the overdetermined part tho soon.. this is something we can change. Personally i just want to bring them in and have immersion into p@w examples... but that might mean other experiences than just a verbal description... so... something to think about
BASEKAMP team: 20:10:58
be back in a few...
atrowbri: 20:13:15
I agree with Stephen. I get the idea of getting people involced with a game but I don't see how this really bridges anything
atrowbri: 20:15:04
On the other hand, I really wonder if the students will be able to come up with new, plausible artworlds without some sort of anti-direction, by which I mean actively attacking scholastic structure, freeing them from expectations and encouraging them to look at their own lives, communities and asking them to consider plausible artworlds that are not imposed from outside