Week 42: Periferry

Scott: Hello there

Steven: Are Mriganka and Sonal with us?

Scott: Sonal and Mriganka are not with us yet, I'll have to add them to the call now, so unfortunately we couldn't add them to the text chat, so I'll have to call them both separately.  So if everybody could just hand tight for a second, we'll get them on the line hopefully right away.

[Scott's daughter talking]

Female: Is that your girl Scott?

Scott: Yes

Steven: I feel like I should add some baby noises to this conversation.

Scott: Oh, yeah, please do.  Okay, adding Sonal now and Mriganka.

Hello Sonal, how are you?

Sonal: Hi, Hi Scott

Steven: Hi Sonal, Steven here, how are you?

Sonal: Hi Steven, good, how are you?

Steven: Good to hear your voice, it's very early...

Mriganka, Hey Mriganka, how're you doing?

Mriganka: Hi, I'm fine.  There's a delay in the voice.

Steven: Yeah, well, it's normal, it's 3.30 in the morning right, so, we can [inaudible 0:01:42.4] a tiny bit of a delay, I guess.  So, are we ready to go Scott?

Scott: Absolutely, we finally got everyone connected, it took twenty minutes, but we're here.

Steven: So, listen, welcome Periferry.  It's a real privilege and a pleasure to have you with us.  It's a particular honor since we've forced you either to stay up or get up at this ungodly hour to tell us about life on the Brahmaputra river, on this incredible platform made out of steel, with twin-diesel engines, that I've also had the pleasure of being on, talking on, and riding on.  What we thought we would do is ask you to describe the project.  We frame it as a kind of an art world, and art sustaining and life sustaining environment, but you're free to not think of it that way since it's yours.  But basically to tell us where the idea came from, where you're taking it to, and some of the stuff you've been doing, and then people will jump in with questions as we go along, both on text -- I don't know if you're seeing the text questions or not.

Scott: No, they're not able to see the text questions, but I have a separate chat so what I can do is paste in things that are, well I mean everything's relevant but specific questions maybe.

Steven: Sure, perfect.  Ok, I'm going to mute my mic for now, but don't worry I'll take it off very soon to ask questions.

Mriganka: Sonal, you want to start?

Sonal: Yeah, sure, I can do that.  

Maybe what I can do is just give you a brief outline of how we came to start Periferry, which is a project of desire machine collective, so I must tell you a bit about what desire collective essentially is.  The founding members are Mriganka, and myself, Sonal.  We started working together in 2004.  We started collaborating on a number of projects we were working on a number of film-based/photography-based projects, but what was very important for our practice is that our decision to actually come back to the region which is broadly called the northeast of India, and base our practice there.  We belong to that place, so in 2004 we actually came down back from where we were, which is the west part of India, and started our project, and started desire machine collective and started working together.  Now, just to give you a brief outline of what this region, northeast India is actually, I can just briefly take you through this.  It's geographically isolated from the rest of India, it is 99% borders with other countries, like Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burma, China etc.  It also suffers from economic neglect.  It has a complex ethnography with dozens of indigenous groups, many [inaudible 0:05:23.9] across the national and state borders.  People have migrated freely across the borders through the centuries, and a lot of the people actually find there are groups which actually stay on both sides of the borders.  It's ethnically and linguistically quite different from the rest of India, and many still refer to it as -- you know the rest of India is mainland India.  I hope you're listening because it's a little strange too you know.

[others]: Sonal it's perfect, and the audio is excellent actually surprisingly, please keep going.

Sonal: In 2007, in this region we started this project called Periferry, which actually works as a laboratory for people engaged across disciplinary practices.  The project focuses on the creation of a network space for negotiating the challenge of contemporary cultural  production.  It is actually located on the ferry on the river Brahmaputra.  It aims to promote experimentation in art, ecology, technology, media and science and create a public space and public domain.  Now, to tell you a bit about the rive Brahmaputra, what is interesting about it is also that it is firstly a transnational river, it starts from China, actually, Tibet, close to China, and into India, Bangladesh, and into the Bay of Bengal.  It has a length of 20,900 km and over centuries, people in the region have shared a close engagement with the river.  In the Hindu belief, it is the only male river in India because in India there is some kind of myth, you might call it, which is associate with all the rivers, not most actually, all the rivers are female.  For example, [Ganga, Yamuna 0:07:37.3] all of them are female rivers.  Brahmaputra is the only male river, and the literal translation is Son of Lord Brahma and it has given inspiration to many artists, singers, poets of the region, and has found reference in folk and older traditions.  We see the river also as a transnational space because of its particular location, and that is an important reason why we decided to locate Periferry on the river.  Can I hand over to Mriganka?

Scott: Great, definitely.

Mriganka: Yeah, hi, I think in between the voice -- there's a lot of trouble in the voice, I could not hear probably, can you hear me?

[others]: Yes, we here you fine, no problem.

Mriganka: Basically, adding to what Sonal was mentioning.  This whole transition of [inaudible 0:09:06.4] we were working towards a nature of a collective [inaudible 0:09:12.3] into the participatory thought and the active kind of domain.  Basically Periferry becomes an instrument of looking at also critically to kinds of things; what Sonal was mentioning about this kind of territorial trap which was very contextual to our practice.  So this, giving ideas, which also we have to admit to an extent what was also informed by writings - if you look at when we proclaim ourselves as [desire machine 0:09:51.8  collective it actually drives and delivers [inaudible 0:09:55.8 thought?].  Secondly, when we make a transition from our own individual artistic practice to something as participatory, or as open as, like involving a space, which was some kind of force this extended idea of [inaudible 0:10:17.2] so it's like a [inaudible 0:10:19.6] kind of trying to combine multiple spaces and kind of a utopian thought within a real space.  Because there was no space which was given for any kind of artistic practice or even for a public thing, so there was a very thin layer between public actions and a more artistic [inaudible 0:10:44.5] to where actually Periferry tends to become somewhere [inaudible 0:10:49.7] kind of space. [inaudible 0:10:59.0] Can you hear me?

Scott: Yes, we can hear you, it broke up a little bit, but I think we got 95% of that, yes.

Mriganka: So that's why probably what Sonal has already mentioned, I think can address discussion of how the river is important as [0:11:27.6] as well as acts as a rhetorical flux which is also important creative space which is not bounded by certain kinds of boundary, because we had this working title of the project as something called alternate boundaries, or borders, so for certain reasons we couldn't have that name because of obvious reasons of political, or economic reasons.  But that's the reason, so the project Periferry tries to dwell between this [0:12:05.3 inaudible].  

Scott: Do you mean that you couldn't have that name for legal reasons?

Mriganka: Yes because when we were working towards this project proposal for certain kinds of funds, we were looking at it because if you look at it from a very mainstream Indian point of view, so most of the time the whole border of India and Pakistan --

Steven: Mriganka, excuse me, what name couldn't you have?

Mriganka: We said we wanted, when we started off, we wanted to have the [inaudible 0:12:56.0] name called alternate borders.  That was before the ferry, but that was the name which we were sharing this idea with people who would like to help us to create this, this kind of problem paper, which was basically was called Alternate borders, but that notion of border is very problematic within Indian contemporary discourse because most of the time, India's border is mostly Pakistan, and it is one of the most important and very delicate matter, but our problem was much more different.  It was basically that - like for example this whole 1947s memories of a new country partly from this part of this country, we don't really share anything, that's physical truth, but at the same time, we're actually northeast India, which is basically situated between south and south east Asia, which is a very interesting geographical location.  So that creates an interesting link to think about borders, so that's how -- and as Sonal was mentioning that call the geographical facts, the river, this other Asian network of countries, which was very much there before 1947 gave us think in terms of a different trajectory to create new [inaudible 0:14:32.2].  That is the background of Periferry.  

Scott: So it was possible for you to do these play on words where you were talking about an interstitial or a peripheral space on a ferry boat.  When did the ferry boat come into play?  The actual strategy of having these kinds of conversations on the water?

Sonal: I'll come to your question, but I would just also like to add a little bit more about north-eastern India

Scott: Oh yes, please, let's not jump to it too quickly

Sonal: I would like to probably just give you also a map for a reference so that we know what we are talking about when we refer to a geographical location like northeast India, so northeast India, it has a lot of indigenous groups in the region and it's a multi-ethnic society, and it has a weakness, or condition of prolonged conflict so since the division of the Indian state, there has been some or the other form of conflict and violence that has been continuing.  In some senses it is a lot like Kashmir and India, which is also much more well-known, so it is an area with a condition of sustained violence and arm struggle.  [0:16:13.3 Inaudible] cultural space transforms drastically, so markers of identity and [inaudible 0:16:19.6] health which traditionally manifest themselves in cultural forms are subverted and occupied predominantly the space for assertion of exclusive identity for political expression.  And this is actually what has actually been happening over the years.  It's basically a large masks of land between south and southeast Asia.  Fluxes migration have been the only constant in this region, it's ever changing, and identity here is not a given, it is something that is again changing constantly.  the movement for self determination translates most times based on assertion of difference into a demand for autonomy.  Separate state and separate [inaudible, disentrances? 0:17:03.0] are what is really common.  So then number of insurgent groups in the northeast and a lot of groups are asking for either more autonomy from the Indian states, or they are asking for a separate state altogether.  So this is the background of the violence and the political tension that the northeast shares with the rest of India.  In this space now what happens is dissent against the government is seen as a pro-militant or insurgent statement.  So in that sense, in that kind of state, what happens is the public opinion and public space is what suffers.  People don't have, like this again we experienced in our earlier works very early on when we were doing research on a certain film on the historical aspect of the region we realized that there is no public space in the region, so that is basically also why Periferry became really important for us to have.  Because there were certain occasions when there were some academic lectures which were also banned.  We were working with this professor who is  from the region but he lives in New York, and he's teaching in a university there, he had come and he was trying to set up with the food foundation centre, and an academic lecture by a scholar was banned.  It was at the last minute the authorities actually just stopped the lecture, so the public space is something which is very scarce in the northeast of India.  That is why also it became important to set up a space where other people could also come in to be in, and there would be a space for dialogue, for discussions etc.

Maybe I also just want to add a little bit of history of the ferry here because what is also interesting in this regard is that when we were planning to set up a space, we were interested in actually looking at a space which is [inaudible 0:19:19.8] completely like a building which kind of falls within the structure, so there were a number of ferry boats which were lying in disuse.  Until the 50s there was no bridge across the Brahmaputra so the region was actually using ferry boats for transferring people, for transferring goods etc.  In the 50s there was a major bridge that came about and after that water transport became less and less used.  So there are a huge number of ferries which are lying in disuse, and we saw these ferries as a potential spot for actually starting a project or having it as a space also because of the location, because where Periferry is located on one side you have the major city of Gauhati, and on the other side of the river is actually a rural area, so in a number of ways, it is an in-between space.  So it's still actually the process of getting the ferry is also really interesting because in a lot of ways it's still a sport because we've been in conversation with the government to try and procure it, but we still haven't got any legal documents,  or we haven't got a lease on it, so for the last 3 years we've actually managed to use it without getting a proper lease; which is also quite rare in these parts of the country.

Scott: That is very interesting, I was curious about the ownership and all of that.

Sonal: Mriganka would you like to continue?

Mriganka: We have already mentioned about the context, do you want us to speak about regarding aspirations or...

Steven: Whatever you think is important, but I mean I think that we have a certain idea, I mean a very rough idea now of the political, geographical context that you're working in, maybe why don't you say what you've done on the boat for the last three years while you've been squatting it?

Mriganka: I can't hear you, can you speak again?

Steven: Yeah, sorry.  I think we have an idea of the political, the geographical context, and why you wanted to do this, but maybe you could describe more generally, what you do on the boat, or what you have done, the types of projects that you have done and hope to do.

Mriganka: Basically as we have mentioned that there's deep link between what we do as a desire machine collective and what we desire to do for Periferry.  Periferry is a kind of a curated project of desire machine collective and it's truly a realization of the [inaudible 0:23:43.7] productions, or what happens it becomes a product in the sense of when you make a film, or in the sense when you maintain an artist's studio, within these conditions, so that aspires, or that motivates to create certain kinds of things.  It also pushes us to create, has pushed us to create this project.  So basically this project involves different kinds of people, collaborations, and when we mentioned which whole idea of borders, we were very instrumental because we tried to make a film, we tried to make several kinds of projects, but it was not really reasonable.  So in a sense, in a very civil society negotiation, so in a sense what we tried was very consciously what happened was we invited people for funding reasons we said we are doing residences but it's up like that, it's a very creative residency, it happens through a lot of discussions and a lot of negotiations and it has been really very researched based.  Projects which we have done in Periferry varies from a couple of artists working together trying to create a collaborative situation, to something like working with the community around the ferry, or to an extent, working with different communities.  Say a group of musicians, a group of folk singers and trying to bridge this border, in one sense we are trying to look at border in a much broader sense of looking at the spaces between the categories like arts, science, technology and several kind of things.  Another thing is very important because I think we also had a [inaudible 0:25:55.7] start where we are developing this, which is very real which is also a very taxing thing.  Also one this was, this notion of border also has to be negotiated to some words again, we found something again with readings of [inaudible 0:26:17.4].  So basically we will thinking Periferry also as a concept, this month on the 8th October for the first time we did a Periferry even in Berlin.  So the whole idea of notions of creating new encounters or inspiring people to meet at various frontiers, creating fresh dialogues, debates, negotiations and recordings, so we were trying to start in a new kind of discourse.  That was what we really intended, so I think Sonal can also tell you, I am forgetting a few things probably she can add.  Sonal can you please add some of the things I missed out?

Sonal: Yes, so, in the larger sense, we see Periferry as a context provider, stretching the concept of artist creation, from making content to making context.  Because it draws so largely from a larger social/political reality, I think context is something that is very close to the way we actually function.  So we are providing a context where we leave it open for people to actually come and collaborate, and also I think it's really important as a strategy because we do not want to also represent the northeast of India, or that region, or other issues, and we want people to actually come in and collaborate and we want multiple voices, rather than our voice to be talking about all of these things.  A context provider in that sense does not speak for others but induces others to speak for themselves, by providing the means or tool and the context where they can speak and be heard.  We like to engage with environment and communities and for this we invite international experts as well as very local people and people working in the natural resources, people who have very different ways of life, world views, and we see this as a really important method where we get the local and the global on the same platform as people participants.  For example, we  would like to work with local innovators, like this lady called [Name K. Pura 0:29:07.1] who is an expert on local plants and herbal medicines.  So guided by this principle of practice-like theory, we look at it as a curatorial problematic localized participatory practices are central to our discourse.  Creation and artistic direction will be undertaken through collaboration between the project partners and agreement of curatorial methodologies, we also give a huge amount of emphasis on research, so anybody who comes in would be spending a minimum of a month to  - we had a really interesting residency this winter and two artists from [inaudible 0:29:56.3] spent three and a half months on the ferry.  This is really important for people to come and engage with the place, because most of the people who come into the northeast come in as tourists, and to even understand the context requires that kind of time and engagement.  This local/global partnership, the project aims to gain a perspective on key issues through bringing together diverse players.  Now I'd like to just mention some of the key issues that we hope to look at.  

Since the ferry is located on a river, the two key elements of the project are definitely the ferry itself and water.  When we talk about water and rivers, we are very clear that there are going to be flash points of future conflicts.  This is something that is already an immediate threat because China plans to build a really huge dam on its part of the Brahmaputra, and divert huge amounts of the waters to its drought-ridden areas.  So in this sense, we are also trying to bring focus to really important issues to do with water, and rivers, and also what is really disturbing for us is the fact that since Brahmaputra actually flows through the northeast, it does not affect the rest of India so much, there is not a huge amount of outcry about the plans of China building this dam.  It's going to have huge amount of environmental consequences on the region, and the whole region; not only just India, but also Bangladesh would suffer deeply from it because the river is the food provider, the food basin for the entire region, but the Indian government is not really taking a strong stance on this.  So that is also something that we are planning to look at in the future.  I would just like to also mention some of the other aims that we are looking at: I think that Mriganka has already mentioned, that since it's on the river, we plan to conceptually and physically connect the flow of everyday currents in the region.  This again, we want to do by different ways, also, work as an archive of sorts because there are a huge number of people who are actually drawing inspiration from the river and most of the people are using older traditions to express themselves and the Bible was actually the first written text for most of the people in the northeast, so this huge tradition of oral tradition, and folk songs is central to the cultural expression of the people.  In some ways acting as an archive for all of this, we want to explore the pertinent relationship that the river has with food, energy, electricity, geography, and we want to in the future also look at making the ferry a biosphere of sorts because we have already started working in this direction since the river is the life source of the region, the ferry is also located in Guwhati which is a huge city, but it also faces huge amount of crisis which any other city in the world, or in India has in terms of food, water, etc; we are also looking at the ferry as becoming central to this discourse for actually growing food, looking at alternative energy sources, and making it into a biosphere.  

Scott: So you're working on turning the ferry itself into a resource production machine in a sense.

Sonal: Absolutely, yes.  Also, because the ferry is a diesel-run vehicle and we haven't really moved it yet.  So it becomes interesting for us to look at what it can become, if it's static, like I mentioned earlier, there are a huge number of these ferries which are lying redundant and we are on a water source as of now.  They can easily be turned into a unit of food production, and there are also another set of community, which lives around the river; the huge amount of homeless people who live there also because there's a big temple, they get alms and food from people who are deputies of the temple so they live in that areas.  This is something that we are also trying to do - to work with communities and engage in communities and also looking at it as a collaborative plan home for holistic and sustainable development.  

Mriganka: I think here I would like to read out from some of the words which we used in our manifesto of Periferry: [inaudible 0:35:55.6] words which I would like to emphasize which we have been using, but the meaning, what we mean by those words.  The three words basically, which is now we are making the lexicon of Periferry, so one of the words is experimental the word experiment being used here [inaudible 0:36:15.9] uses it, not as descriptive of an act to be later judged in terms of success and failure, but simply as an act out of which is unknown.  So even though we are talking about all this, this is like a form of [inaudible 0:36:28.2] it is not like something.  Even the residency what Sonal was mentioning, he was talking  with solar energy, but he was not really as a artist, he was not really interested in the functional ends of it but he was interested in the poetics of the photoelectric effect, we also practice other things within the ferry.  It also has this in between kind of thing.  Secondly, we mentioned hybrid practices, so basically, changing the emphasis from knowledge, from art, technology, media and science, we try to encourage cross-disciplinary collaborative processes, also aimed to go beyond the [inaudible 0:37:13.2] nations of the world.  It is our attempt  to bridge the gap between the special vocabulary of science, art, and the general interests of the audience.  Last thing, we call laboratory so basically Periferry --

[Scott's daughter talking]

Mriganka: [inaudible 0:37:39.6] on the basis of various concept between various disciplines.  In Periferry we try serve space where knowledge and cultures are made.  This laboratory also has multiple identities, it acts as a museum, a workspace, also, it can act as a studio.  These are some of these broader thing which we work upon.  

Scott: And maybe it would be worth for asking explicitly Mriganka, what kinds of specific competencies you guys are able to bring from your work as artists, and I think you just described some of the concepts that you bring from the field of art into his other realm, but I'm wondering if there are certain things that you've learned, certain specific competencies that you're able to bring as artists to this situation?

Mriganka: You were saying the functional capabilities of what...

Scott: I think so, yes.  Well, I mean, when you say, I didn't meant to make a distinction between conceptual and operative, but I think I mean, it could even -- conceptual competencies could even be something but I meant that could in some way be applied, or the ways that you apply it, I think is what I'm curious about.  Because was Steven mentioned earlier that we have been describing what you guys do in this realm that you're working with and you're creating as a kind of art world, a kind of ego system, a cultural eco system that sustains a certain kind of creative practice but an expanded notion of a creative art practice; one of the things that continues to occupy us when we're thinking about this is: What do people mean when they say art when we're describing their practice as art and usually we help to find it, or we come to some kind of a better idea when they talk about the competencies that they bring as artists.  Often even what kinds of competencies come from other fields that's able to enrich your work as artists, but I'm curious about the first, does that make sense?

Mriganka: Yes, so basically I think in that sense we have also mentioned something, two kinds of things; I think we also have to explain what are our backgrounds, what are our histories -- individual history and what really [inaudible 0:40:53.9] us because also the whole archaeology of this word art, also we try to understand because personally, I think Sonal is trained in arts, one of the prominent art schools of India, but I had a very different thing, I  studied science and then I studied design, and when we started this desire machine collective, working together, the primary thing was definitely moving [inaudible 0:41:29.4] but in a sense we were looking at ideas it was a pure ideas, it was not about the medium.  In a sense that also made us to understand this larger domain between what we're trying to operate, because India is a little complicated in the sense there is very complicated pedagogical problem, very limited.  Even sometimes, the vocabulary we use it will be amazing that this cannot be shared in a larger pedagogical situation, so it is derived from various sources, from very informal sources, there's this whole informal pedagogy-cum-conceptual domain has been created for a period of time, so basically in Periferry I think we also try to understand because sometimes it is also questionable, people question us if this is culture, this is science, so under which domain we are really operating.

Understanding of art, or in this sense, visual art what has, even in this radically, there's not an activity which is happening within India, which is radically interdisciplinary, and it is [inaudible 0:42:57.4] the concepts of art, I think to define for ourselves the groups working on [inaudible 0:43:11.5] and other practices, are involved in [inaudible 0:43:15.4].  So the amount of spasmodic events that are really rather different from what passes as visual art in the visual [inaudible 0:43:24.3] system.  So in a sense, our decision to actually work beyond this is very limited, in India the alternative art system is also dominated to an extent at a whole ideal exhibition.  Our practice is more like research to fill political, statistical and [inaudible 0:43:46.4].  So these are visual intellectual evolution that cannot be reduced to [inaudible 0:43:53.5] of the art system.  So what we call art activity, or art, is expanding, it is already expanding for ourselves, and I think also in a sense, we also have encountered this you know, [inaudible 0:44:14.0] how to make our work apart that is not a work of art, so it creates a matter of ways we might be [inaudible 0:44:21.6] with works, events [inaudible 0:44:23.1] that don't look like art at all, because in the beginning we also had a lot of resistance from artists who work in the domain of painting, sculptures, they were questioning as if we had some level of mental thing that we are supposed to develop certain thing.  Because there is no existence.  So in that sense we were not even [inaudible 0:44:44.9] because there was nothing posing to ask, there was no predominant art system [inaudible 0:44:51.7] which was operating in this area.

Scott: I was just going to say, so maybe there's a kind of opening there, you described how certain kinds of art systems were inadequate for the kind of work that you wanted to do, so you produced your own machine, your own system, your own machine for this.

Mriganka: So it is also in a sense an  experiment I think what we got I think was your question to  answering I think in a very direct way what we got I think we got, we derived for our livelihood I think I work for a design [inaudible 0:45:37.7] is one of the [inaudible 0:45:38.8] so it is design, and I also have encountered doing a lot of these issues of renewable energy which is becoming much more prominent in this design discourse.  Which cannot really implement some of these experiments within this formal system, which is pure taught.  This whole act of [inaudible 0:45:59.2] act of these things.  Which are not really domain in a dominated by products of things.  Which is pure processes.  Because I think in India think, and that's what exactly is also what Periferry is going to look in the next stage, is [inaudible pedagogy 0:46:17.2] because I think pedagogy is losing, is not really interested in the [inaudible senses 0:46:22.7] within Indian thing.  It is becoming like a part of a bigger, larger sized industry so student or things, are not really exposed to this kind of, the way of looking at several kinds of systems, so it's like... to summarize I think what we would say is that it's a marker for ways we might be able to [inaudible 0:46:48.8] with works, events and different kinds of things.  But what we calling it art somehow it can be electric, it can energy nodes etc, transmitters, conductors of new thinking, new subjectivity and actions that visual artwork in the traditional sense is not able to articulate.  That exactly is what we're trying to bring in this, this kind of hybrid knowledge which needed that fresh way of looking at is, otherwise it is some gallery or some modes of, or some models like [inaudible 0:47:23.0] for people like that kind of models are predominant so it is like that model, it is a very simple model so there is non existence for that kind of thing.  And secondly also that working beyond those territories, because I think we will also talk about network culture, but we have serious doubts [inaudible 0:47:47.8] network culture within this kind of domain, because ultimately it's still Bombay and Delhi because it still act as old port cities where trades are, where this kind of culture production happens.  So this is not really extending our equal sharing of space or information to a larger extent, I think which is what our [inaudible 0:48:18.3] of utopia is all about.  It's a kind of utopic project.  

Sonal: I would just like to add one thing: We also seek inspiration from Martha Rosler when she talks about the role of artists as a social agent.  So we see our role also to reactivate [inaudible 0:48:44.6] that are embedded in the society, yet may not have been asked.  I think that is something that is very central also to our practice.  Would anybody like to ask any questions?

Scott: Yes, by the way, you guys aren't able to see this, but we have a running text chat as we're talking, so I'm trying to pick through and see what kind of questions people have, does anyone have any other questions?  I think probably Steven and I can continue to ask one after the other, but we don't want to rule everyone else.

Well, I could ask one in the meantime while people are thinking about the next questions.  I'm curious about the other unused ferry boats, I think you said there are a lot of unused docked ferry boats all along the river?

Sonal: Right

Scott: And it seems to me often artists' project that are creating these kinds of micro social experiments - and I say micro, even though I think your project is actually quite large in scope, but micro in the sense that it's limited to one boat, and it's finite in that way - I like to see a project as this as a kind of pilot, in a way, it makes me wonder what might happen if the idea caught on, if there were a number of break out groups that could occupy other ferries, and I was curious if you guys had explored that idea at all, or if it just seems so already so much to handle with one massive ferry.

Sonal: Yeah, actually, I think we would like of course for there to be a ripple effect, but it would not be something that we would be ready at this point to take on.  But when we speak of creating a biosphere or an ecosystem, that again, we want it to be a pilot in a sense that it can be a model for other people and the government to take inspiration from our - you know, it would work as a model for other people to also do.  In that sense, definitely we are looking at our project as something that would be like a trendsetter for others.  Til now, the only other uses that people have made of these ferry boats is extremely commercial, so there's a cruise that runs on one of the boats, there are people who started small restaurants and bars on it, but apart from that, there's not much that has happened.  What would be interesting for us to see also is, there is also this complex kind of community which lives on the ferries because they serve also as home to the people who are actually taking care of them, and these people are actually government employees, and they use the space in the most intimate way, so they're living on it, actually using the water from the river, they are actually fishing in the river, and so in a sense we are really connected with the space, so we see them as true stakeholders in a project like this.

Scott: Interesting

Sonal: So, the moment, --yeah

Scott: please go ahead, It's just the lag, it's easy to interrupt

Sonal: It's just that also, I was just thinking of -- the whole vision is to, that the moment that you start growing food and people see that this is something that is [inaudible 0:53:33.1]and you have alternative energy sources coming in, then we see people actually coming on their own initiatives and adopting some of these methods.  That is the way we see it going.

Scott: and I think what's so interesting about your project though is it's not a conceptual project in the sense that it's; in the sense that Mriganka you were describing how initially it was a kind of pure idea, I think what you guys have done with this is beyond that in the sense that you're able to, the way that you use this is to have these intense exploratory sessions.  That's what it seems to me, not having been a participant, I know Steven's been on your boat, but what it sounds like to me is that you have conferences, you have experimental events, you see this as an ongoing research, whereas I think if it was purely a biosphere and a boat, that kind of activity wouldn't go on, that kind of critical community building or if that's even an appropriate way to describe what you're doing.  But in any case, it seems like something like that wouldn't happen -- but what you're doing, that's part of what, it sounds like to me, it's part of the art contacts that you bring into this situation.  It's not purely and academic pursuit, and it's not purely a visual pursuit, it's not purely the pursuit of a botanist or someone who is an eco-activist, you're, as you said, hybridizing things from many different fields but you're using, some of what at least in my impression, is some of the most flexible maneuvers developed by people in the art field over the last 50 years, or more, into this floating space of yours.  In a way, I guess my curiosity, if this were to expand, of course there would be the danger of things like corruption, but also, you wouldn't want the activity that you're doing to be watered down -- no pun intended -- by something very, much more superficial, or too specific.

Mriganka: Can you just repeat what is your question?  I understood everything

Scott: The actual question itself; is the specific hybrid practice that you've set up something that you would be concerned about becoming compromised if this were to be extended further?

and I'm only imagining this, of course, what you're doing might not really relate to what I'm asking because you're not actually actively seeking a large expansion of this, but I was curious about it because imagining that, even if what you're doing it's not a pie-in-the-sky thing, what you're doing is real, it's not just some kind of fantastical possibility, it's an actual plausible way of living and working.  But, in order to think about how that can be, how it either already is, or could possibly be applied to other realms, maybe other areas, other places in the world, or even integrated into other parts of the culture that you already tapping in to work with.  I don't know, for me it's sometimes important to take these kinds of mental exercises and sort of ask these questions.  Maybe you guys are already actively addressing them, maybe not.  But specifically, what were to happen if this were to be expanded.

Mriganka: Definitely, we discussed these possibilities and kinds of things.  But definitely, in one sense, it is also a kind of very [inaudible 0:58:15.6] if you see it's only like five or six people actually running this, and also now I think it's also time we should talk about when Steven asked us about high points and low points.  I think one of the things is also it is truth of fact is that ultimately this kind of thing what we created is also has some kind of, we have to save funds to able to realize some kind of thing, and a lot of compromises also, uncertainty also we have --

[sound cuts off for a few seconds]

Mriganka: which is also

Scott: Mriganka, could you repeat that last part?  I think we got cut out for a second there.

Mriganka: Ok, so, what I'm saying is that I wanted to tell two things specific to this point is kind of, and I was mentioning this idea of heterotopias that he actually [inaudible 0:59:22.5] interesting an example of a garden inside a city.  So the garden is the perfect heterotopias because a garden has plants and things from different parts of the world, so the garden is not pure biology, it has various kinds of other things one can dwell into, so life in Periferry is like to think we also borrow kinds of knowledge, it's also kind of fluctuating [inaudible 0:59:52.0]coming and using the floor Periferry, so the whole thing is ever expanding and sometimes happens that we also need to sit down and try to understand what is Periferry today, because various different kinds of things happening, so there is not a definite shape of Periferry, we could say about these things.  Regarding the possibility, it has given us, you know the way we are doing it, it is an experiment within space, involving people, different practices, so it is for, when we say art, science and....

[pause]

so there are various other kind of thing which sometimes we just do it and secondly I would say regarding matter of process, we have, for the last two years, we have never planned it.  Even the event we did with Stefan and Renee last year, it was basically not superbly organized, we discussed over things and little basic kind of amenities which was available and we let it grow which was never part of a program so we also belief in this whole kind of organic way of operating these things, we really don't see ourselves getting institutionalized and getting all this complicated.  But it is also a danger, you know in one sense of this really, of the real world, of the whole thing of funding because Sonal was mentioning about the context is complicated it's very difficult because there is no state funding and there is all kind of [inaudible 1:01:46.3] kinds of things, so there's always a sense of you know, and which also in one sense, which is part of the thing, kind of uncertainty of this thing.  So it can collapse, it can rise again, it's kind of really, you know a free-style kind of thing, which is not really conscious, but in a sense that's how the real state of mind, or state of Periferry is quite fluctuating, if I have explained you correctly what you really want to know.

Sonal: Yeah, I would just like to add a couple of points there, I think also what Mriganka [inaudible 1:02:27.6 ] slashed upon, the funding here is really important issue because if, I don't know if you're aware, but in India there is no state funding for anything like what we are doing, and most of the other spaces are not really, do not have any government or state funding at all.  Most of them have international funding, which brings its own set of problems, but at least people are able to do things with that funding, but when it comes to the northeast of India because the government has deemed it as a security threat and it is considered a dangerous area with terrorists and insurgents etc, and there is huge amount of scrutiny of the foreign funding that comes in also, so even getting that small amount of foreign funding is very difficult for us.  So sustainability is definitely a key questions with regards to the project so when you talk of actually expanding it, even maintaining as smaller project would be a huge challenge.

Scott: Absolutely, yeah.

Sonal: That is one, the other problematic, we are actually trying to, we are definitely clear that we do not want to get institutionalized and become an organization etc, but there's also the whole politics of development within these kind of areas, because it's a really underdeveloped area in the traditional sense of the word - the way people understand it.  So we do not at all subscribe to this notion of top down central kind of development that the Indian government or development of ideas that people have.  Out ideas is definitely -- that's why whenever we have this -- there are some certain amount of funds in India available for this kind of development of the art etc, but we are very clear that we are not trying to make northeast the next, maybe Delhi, or Bombay in terms of creating an art market and all of that so, we are very conscious of all these things.  So I think that's why also still being small and being a micro initiative is much more conducive to what we're trying to do.

Scott: Yeah absolutely, I mean the mental exercise of imagining what would happen if something were to expand doesn't always mean that it would be a good idea to do that even if it were possible.  We were just, not exactly choking, but getting a sense of the texture here, or kind of responding to what you were saying it seems -- Steven has a much better sense of it, you know, just sort of being in the area about how incredible unlikely it is for your vessel, and Kate on the chat here have both been in that area,  both sort of realize how impractical it is to imagine your ferry being co-operated by some major corporation who wants to turn it into a luxury floating hotel or something for tourists.  Actually, it's an interesting point about scale that often micro initiatives have a certain ability and strength that larger ones don't.  Even maybe if there's an ability to bypass certain kinds of scrutiny.

You were saying before that you weren't interested in developing art markets in that region, or trying to, I wouldn't even say gentrify, but bring that kind of sensibility into that region, we definitely have a really good idea, or a good sense that that's really not what you're doing, but I was curious about while you didn't want to bring that kind of "art" into the region, I was interested in the fact that you are creating a certain kind of market in a sense, or at least a certain kind of system of exchange that seems like it really isn't there.  

Sonal: Mriganka, would you like to address that?

Mriganka: I didn't hear it because there is a lot of disturbance on that side.

Scott: Do you mean audio disturbance?

Mriganka: Yes, I can't hear your voices clearly, there's a lot of disturbance in the mic.

Scott: I can try to repeat that, would that be helpful?

Mriganka: Yes, I still hear some disturbance I think.

Scott: I'll repeat that one more time, if it doesn't work I'll type it.

Well just, one of several things that were mentioned is that you guys are really not interesting in bringing a kind of art market into that region that exists elsewhere in Bombay or otherwise, and I was saying well, definitely not, but you are bringing something else to that region that seems to not be there without you.  Part of that sounds to me like it's a kind of distribution system, or at least some kind of system of exchange or something like that, that really didn't exist before, it's not so much a questions as a statement I guess.

Mriganka: So basically I think you know, what you mentioned it's about from the very beginning when we were mentioning, we started speaking about the context,  I think the idea of art market comes when we put it ourselves as artists, because there is always kind of pressure, because like if you see today if you would not have done in a sense, this communication would not have been possible.  The artists sitting here would not have been able to communicate, so there is, as artists we have always been under pressure from the art market or certain standard ideas of looking at certain kind of practices.  In a sense, what we want is the idea of perception, I think there is a lot of confusion in the beginning, with even artist communities this is art, this is because there are certain standards, modes of standards, a way of looking at art which art institutes or galleries they kind of circulate among our [inaudible 1:10:16.1] .  Even to the west, a lot of these new exhibition which has really happen of the way of looking at Indian art, like there was a competition last week , we were in Amsterdam, and somebody was really shocked that we were using certain kinds of vocabulary that person didn't have.  So this is an idea of perception.

 Now, within India we have this reason, and we have this kind of... because this thing here now we're not really using as an directive, but in a sense it's a kind of phenomena, a phenomena of perception, of looking at certain areas.  Another thing I think we missed was there's still some laws, like when Sonal was mentioning about disturbed military problems and autonomic conflicts so the government of India still has some law which is imposed on these zones which were initially imposed by Indian freedom fighters.  So there is a certain way, this is militarization, secondly it is a way of looking at anthropological categories, so I think what we also in a sense I think we would also try to extend this in a sense crossover to the concept of perception, also as an artist we are talking a lot of things, moving in ways that interest us a lot, the whole notion of perception, how you perceive is our identity, like the questions of India, what really comes to your mind because which is very different from when you call it Dutch or German, or even to an extent an American, so India is very diverse, it is very quite hybrid, in a sense that there isn't this kind of monolithic construction, it's impossible.  So this basically to Periferry what I think what we have, to some extent is to create new perceptions about this zone, or create a different kind of concentration, ok, this is also coming from there.  I think what we're also saying is Periferry is happening from there, so this is saying in a sense not even saying because it's not even the whole idea of  northeast is also very problematic because there is nothing called northeast because it's a very colonial construct, it's because northeast of where? Northeast of India.  Because there's scums from the British colonial construct frontier northeast agency and the northwest was basically Afghanistan, so by 1947 this perception disappeared, the northwest, but northeast still remains because it is still understandable by Indian state, and again, this whole love-hate relation with China, so in a sense, the proximity, so in a sense we are also kind of reconfiguring this and trying to understand because this river is also kind of greater physical illustration of what a network can me.  The river starts in Tibet, goes through Assam, and goes through Bangladesh and goes to the Bay of Bengal, so in a sense it works at the various stages, so how do we - so I think in one word it will be perception.  We are what we are actually started off and slowly it is creating this kind of re-territorializing, because now in a sense Periferry does multiple ideas that is coming from various parts of the world because ferry of ship was a vehicle of colonialism; people ventured out to different territories but using the same kind of structure to create a new way of looking at new conversations. I think that's, if I have answered the question.

Scott: Definitely, I have more questions, but I'm hesitant to ask before anyone else gets a chance.

I'm curious about the, value or the importance of philosophy in your practice because a big part of your practice is discursive, it's conversational, there are conferences, there are experimental events, but many of the things that both of you have described have reference to a number of things that I'm aware of, and very likely a lot of things I'm not aware of, but a number of the things that you have referenced that made my ears pop up were, for instance to political philosophers, and I was curious if that's, I mean from the name of your group to a number of the key concepts that you brought up.  I'm just curious if you find a value in that, in your communication so the people , if you find that it actually does help to build critical community, or if you think that's mainly a carryover from your education, that's kind of informed what you do, but not necessarily made its way into part of an ongoing discursive practice.  I'm just not sure because I haven't been to any of your events, and I was curious about that.

Mriganka: I missed the last past, there was a disturbance in the last part of the question.

Scott: Back to say, I was curious if this is a carryover mainly from your education that informs the trajectory of how you got started and how you from your social practice as artists or if that really continues to be a useful tool in your arsenal that you use regularly in the conferences and these ongoing floating discussion sessions.

Mriganka: I think in a sense definitely I think what we do is definitely informed by our subjective reading and kinds of things, which I would also like to mention.  We belong to this place and we have been in India, you have to travel about  two to three thousand km to study, and ten thousand people you have to meet, you have to kind of very multiple, a very [inaudible 1:18:17.0] information structure you have, it is not so from it.  In the sense when you encounter certain problems your solution is not so linear so you think about your practice and multiple things, your relation to other artists, your relation to your space and many other things, what it is your studio, and many other things.  I think there I think in the sense when things has almost happens, we would say accidents --

[Scott talks to his daughter]

we have encountered in the [inaudible 1:18:57.6] most of where we are studying or working, Sonal was teaching, I was studying, and in a sense, that started off the trigger, certain kinds of ideas [inaudible 1:19:11.1] trapped to one kind of territory, if you look at what [inaudible 1:19:18.8] it's more or less, it cannot be even [inaudible 1:19:22.3] philosophy or with its history, it's very transgressive kind of critical domain, so in a sense I think what became, we became artists much later but we get engrossed and we try to understand this critical domain because in a sense living in 90s or trying to place yourself in this great, this larger domain of Indian systems, it was quite difficult to [inaudible 1:19:55.7] post colonialism and other kinds of things were also very very locational in a sense.  So, I think it is actually derived from our readings and a lot of discussions and a lot of meeting with various people, and I think that's starting from, as I was mentioning in the beginning that desire machine collective it's from a collective action between me and Sonal because kinds of conversation, trying to create a collective kind of thing.  Very participatory kind of unlimited kind of action which resulted into Periferry when we actually have to come back to the specific physical [inaudible 1:20:46.8] so when we have encountered space, we're looking at encountering studio, entrepreneurship that became desire machine collective and became like the whole idea of [inaudible 1:20:57.5] your relation of the work to other kinds of things.  So I think in a sense it is a larger experiment which is happening and in a sense it is also not involving only two of us, there has become a larger kind of conversation, it's in one sense, people also inform us and also some of our thing also goes out into the public, it doesn't remain only with us.

Scott: Good point.  There's a discussion on the chat, I don't know if you guys wanted to bring it into the audio realm?  Not to put anyone on the spot, I just wanted to

Kate: I had to attend to dinner and then I hopped back in, so I missed quite a big chunk I think, but I think I'm wondering maybe you have gotten into this, having been to the northeast and having lived in Delhi for quite some time, I wonder even -- it feels to me perhaps it's important but it's in the northeast because like I would imagine doing some projects like this would be so much more difficult in Delhi, because of space and because of just the cultural differences of the northeast, and northern India for instance.  I found the northeast much more progressive in some ways unless [inaudible 1:22:57.7]

I think I'm trying to get at is that it feels important to me that it's located, the original Periferry product has been located where it is, even though I know that's something you've been trying to get away from perhaps.  

Sonal: Yeah, but, could you frame it like a question, because obviously we agree with you, you know, it's important, yes please go on.

Kate: I just think it's interesting as an artist that lived in India, I haven't come across lots of really socially engaged projects in other places in the country.  I guess I'm wondering what it is about Guwahati or up there even without the contemporary art scene that made it possible?

Sonal: Yes, I think I understand a little about what you're referring to because it's strange right now, I'm in Bombay, and talking about Periferry from Bombay gives you a completely different perspective and we were having these huge discussions about space, the notion of space in a place like Bombay, or Delhi, and a lot of people feel that space is extremely limited, because there are so many other kind of courses where there's the media or a strong post like Bollywood in Bombay that dominates everything.  We've heard from many people, even artists and art critics and writers who constantly complain about this aspect of, specially a place like Bombay where Bollywood and the film industry and its commercial giant is so dominant that there is not enough mental space to operate.  In a lot of ways I understand the nuance of your question, and I think what you mentioned about --

Kate: I was going to say,  I think one of the things I've always been interested in is how because in the US and a lot of western places, the artists and cultural communities tend to gravitate towards places where they squat, or places where the rent is cheaper, maybe not safe neighborhoods, there's like a long history of that phenomenon, but in Delhi for instance you don't really, I don't know if that exists in the same way because the squatters spaces are being occupied by other people that are immigrants or they're sort of just trying to survive, I have been so -- I've always been interested that there's this added layer of well where did the cultural communities that need to [inaudible 1:26:30.3] an existence go? and these cities of 20 million people, or like everybody's trying to fight it out for space.  But you're on a boat on the Brahmaputra which is an answer to that.

Sonal: Yeah, I think this also ties into a larger problematic of the way contemporary art functions within India because in that sense, our initiative is really even smaller than micro because obviously there hardly exists any kind of space actually to do something like this, but also even the market is not really so large, but so obviously there's this huge gravitation towards Delhi and Bombay, so most of the people who have actually trained in arts, especially in arts, and in fact, most other professional fields would also move towards the bigger cities because that's where the jobs are, that's where they'd find all kinds of life-style, and all of that, so firstly of course there's this whole movement towards Delhi and Bombay, which I think is also problematic because a lot of the artists work -- I'm talking of individual artists now, and their work draws from a certain context and when they move to a bigger city obviously they lose that context, because, as I'm sure all of you are aware India is such a large country, and there are so many differences in terms of culture and language and religion and caste and class so to kind of bridge all of that, that's also our personal observation that a lot of time people lose out because they think that the market is in the bigger cities, so firstly they move towards the bigger cities.  For us it was actually [inaudible 1:28:46.1] an easy choice when we decided to actually go back to the northeast, and I was personally told by many people that I'm crazy for doing that, but it was just so much more interesting for the reason that you mentioned earlier - that it is a space which is so different from the rest of India, in terms of the sensibilities because the huge amount of population is indigenous, and they have a very - in my view - a very progressive sensibility also because it's much more, the rest of India is much more patriarchal and the northeast does provide much more space for women, there's much more respect for women there are a number of - where I come from, the entire system is matrilineal, so women are traditionally empowered, there's no questioning of empowering them, they have been empowered.  So in a number of ways, and also in terms of culture and just the way people operate, it's definitely something, we feel much more comfortable working with.  So it was definitely a conscious choice to go back and try to negotiate that space and the standards and place our practice there.

Mriganka: And also, I think I would like to add one more small point, one thing which is also convenient I think in terms of matter, because we were not really, in the beginning we were very sure that we were not performing this for anybody.  Neither any media agency or nobody, so we didn't really - a lot of people wanted to write about us, but we said they were not coming they can try to do this by telephoning interviews or something, but we refused because those kinds of publicity would really hamper us, because those media kind of things, were not critical, it was just a report of us, and this doesn't really create anything at all on the long run, it creates confusion.  So in a sense I think more or less in the big cities the smaller initiatives they have to part from it for somebody because it has to be seen because we already are, it is invisible, so when we are performing  [inaudible 1:31:14.8]in that sense of like it was convenient.  But that is the only convenient thing.

Steven: I think we are all the more grateful for the fact that you accepted to talk with us, all of whom are extremely far from Assam, in various spots around the globe, but you also travel relatively extensively which is why it was so hard to pin you guys down for this discussion, I'm glad we were finally able to, but it's interesting, and you mentioned too earlier on is that you recently de-territorialized the Periferry experience onto the Spree river, in Berlin, how did that work out?

Mriganka: Basically we were in Berlin because of an exhibition which we basically did in Guggenheim that was part of the thing, because when we were mentioning about our [inaudible 1:32:35.5] we were basically Periferry was definitely an important component of our practice, so basically what we did was, the last, a few days back before the thing, the exhibition ends, we invited a kind of curated - the way we usually do Periferry in our northeast India, we do in Guwahati, we invited the people, they saw the exhibition, and then we wanted them to exit the gallery and take a curative part to this barge which we negotiated and took it for a few hours because of definitely certain expense we could not have been able to squat without any kind of [inaudible 1:33:20.4] .

So we invited a couple of people which we also wanted to engage, kind of people, you know certain things, this new kind of things which is happening around Europe, the social political fluxes, new thinking which is very happening, we were also quite interested to invited this interesting philosopher [Didracher? 1:33:52.2] but we couldn't contact him at the right moment so he couldn't make it -

Scott: Sorry Mriganka, could you repeat... ok Steven - you cut out for a second and I didn't catch it fully, thank you, please go on.

Mriganka: So basically we invited this group of curators, artists and initiated this thing which one of our lecture performance which was basically we titled "Speaking through to power" which it is impossible to repeat right now but the idea was to look at every moment to look the creating these temporary spaces, these kind of [heterotopic? 1:34:52.4] spaces in various kinds of things, because this journey was also curated which actually functioned like a border between past eastern or western Germany, or Berlin to an extent and then slowly we also planted two kinds of intervention, we also invited interruptions between our lecture, so it was like people were interrupting in between and kind of injecting, so it became a collaborative kind of performance which was in a sense certain points were accidental,  certain things were also very intentional, so and then we also invited two of our collaborators in a larger sense which were doing a project with London-based organization called different exchange, we're doing a project called two rivers where we're looking at Thames and Brahmaputra and trying to do visualize a project, so we invited [1:35:55.9] and we had Peter [surname 1:35:58.7] from Vienna so they also kind of did their thing on the journey.  Sonal you want to add something more?  

Sonal: No, if anybody has questions, I'd be glad to answer.

Steven: I have another question because what's impressive is how broad-reaching your collaboration are, I mean they extend to different types of political, social actors, people from cultural and artistic scenes, in Assam, elsewhere in India, elsewhere in the world, but your collective itself is relatively small, it's you two.  One of the questions that Scott and I had when we initiated this whole project around plausible art worlds and not only art worlds, but just worlds in general is how small can world be and still be a world?  How small can a collective be and still be a collective?  Is two enough?  Or do we need three, or , how does it work for you to be two and to be a couple, moreover, and why haven't you chosen to expand out to a broader group to diversity, because in fact you're interested in diversity so why not diversify the collective itself?

Sonal: Yeah,  I think that's something that we, that's a questions that we engage with all the time, and it's really interesting that - the way you put it because definitely what we kind of reflect upon a lot of times is that there have been many occasions where we've engaged other people in discussions, or in the process of making work etc, and we are definitely very open to having other people on board.  But like I mentioned, within a space like the northeast that is not very easy to have number 1.  Number 2, in terms of Periferry, we have about 5 or 6 more members in the official lists, but a lot of times what happens is of course again, that people are unable to even engage with the kind of contemporary art vocabulary that we work with, so it is a genuine problem that we see, but having said that, we've also been more and more working with many younger students and engaging people and even making work with us and I think we are definitely are committed towards creating more collaborative and collective practices, but in terms of it being just two of us, I think we've created, I'm very sure that we've definitely created a world, and the discussions and provocations for [inaudible 1:39:23.6] constant.  So yeah, it does spill over to our personal space, and so there is for us not something, there's no division between personal and kind of work space, it all merges and, but I think that's why it's also very [inaudible 1:39:46.0] for us because we are constantly provoking each other, challenging each other, or sharing ideas, and I think it really works quite well for us.

Mriganka: I want to add one thing, basically regarding the collective thing, I got something which is maybe related to add to Sonal's thing; I think from the beginning itself we were very interested to have more and more people [inaudible 1:40:14.6] but  I think in one sense, if we have to define specifically, Periferry has also become a collective, right now it's another collective which is like this hosting of this space, but regarding Desire machine collective, I think the [inaudible 1:40:31.9] of creating Desire Machine Collective involves certain kinds of conditions which we have put each other into.  I think til now, a lot of contemporary people who, in one sense we credited as the individuals, but people don't want to put themselves into that position, like to put in this kind of location, or working with this kind of difficult, like for example, this film we just did for this exhibition, so we had, and we tried to see the possibility of creating a different kind of collaboration, we had four [inaudible 1:41:11.1] we opened our film and gave access to four of our collaborators, but at the end, so they wanted to be an individual, this is their choice, because that process was very important, that we had multiple authors, multiplicity coming into, constructing this kind of narrative, so I think that, trying to force that thing, try to invite kind of thing, we also left it open more or less [inaudible 1:41:49.2], so it is their inability in a sense we were always looking at the thing.  Periferry in that sense has this possibility, I think people has to come and actually become part of the collective.

Scott: Well, Mriganka and Sonal, thank you so much for coming, I'm very interested by the way in this last point that was raised, this line of questioning, primarily, just to explain that about your exploration of collectivity and collaboration as artists, both in this particular project and in your process as a whole, as Desire Machine, but you know we'll have to follow up with you about that on another occasion, if you'd be into that, we've now hit a two-hour mark, and I think both for the sake of the people chiming in from Europe here and for your sake, we should probably wrap it up, but we really appreciate you coming to talk with us about this.

Mriganka: Thanks a lot

Steven: Thank you so much both of you, it's really been nice hearing your voices and hearing about this great project, and I think the way you concluded was really perfect, that Periferry remains open, so may it forever remain open, and thank you very much for joining [inaudible 1:43:27.8].

Mriganka: Thanks a lot, it was great talking to you all.

Sonal: I would like to thank the Basekamp team, and Steven and sorry for this huge delay that's been happening, and I think we also really enjoyed this entire conversation a lot.  Good night and thanks.

Steven: Goodnight, or good morning

Scott: Goodnight, morning, evening.