Week 51: IRWIN

Miran: Are you at the hotel or at the airport or in the city?

Stephen: I'm in, what do they call it, the food court at the airport.

Miran: O my God.

Stephen: Yeah it's a complete American concept. You got to see it to believe it.

Miran: Yeah.

Stephen: Here I am and it's great to talk to you.

Miran: Great. Great to talk to you again yes.

Scott: So that's really fabulous I love that you're at a food court Stephen. So hi Miran welcome.

Miran: Hi.

Scott: Welcome to one of our weekly chats. The second to the last in this year of discussions about what we're calling Plausible Artworlds. And welcome everybody. Tonight we'll be talking with members of Irwin and NSK represented by Miran Mohar. And yeah I know would give a lengthy introduction but Miran instead I was wondering if you would be into describing Irwin for people that might not know. And don't feel like you have to give a formal presentation but if you wouldn't mind just giving us a brief intro.

Miran: Okay so how much one, two minutes or something like that more?

Scott: Well you know just I thinkÖ

Miran: Okay.

Scott: ÖI think it might be worth saying what we're ñ yeah let me paste a description by the way for everyone so you can have a slightly more lengthy introduction. I just pasted it into the fact. And for people listening later it's one of the links right on the Basekamp Web site to Irwin under Plausible Artworlds. But I think it might be worth saying what we were just reiterating what we were most interested in. And you can talk about anything you want but I think what we really want to see or look at is to look at Irwin and NSK as a kind of prototype for a different kind of artworld.

Miran: Okay.

Scott: And so we'd really like to know about how you guys, like kind of a little bit of the why, a little bit of the context maybe. But also at some point it would be great to get into the structure of how you set everything up and all of that.

Miran: Okay should I say a few things also about what NSK really is and a little bit of history? I mean if this is important I could do that as well.

Scott: That would be great.

Miran: Okay. Tonight we just start this for the people who don't know anything about it. I'm a member of the collective [inaudible 03: 46] which is a group of five artists, five painters and we work together since 1983. And it is also part of the wider structure which the beginning was called Mia Slavenish Securs. Later in the end of '80s changed the name to Accu Namaniska. And the group was founded in 1984 and consists from the group Laibach started much earlier, basically the beginning of the '80s; 1980.

And this is the group which was mostly in the field of music but they also started in a wider field of ours. They also did visual arts in the beginning. Then Bob Densky was also theatre group a CPO analysis and designed studio collective, later on joined the Department of Pure Practical Philosophy. And we also have a television department architecture but just for a very short time. So basically the group, each group was serious with the [inaudible 05: 15] Charter but from time-to-time we agreed ñ can you hear me?

[Background noise]

Stephen: Yes. Can everyone please mute their mics when not speaking?

Miran: Something is ñ hello.

Stephen: Yeah give us just a second to sort out the - okay is that better?

Miran: Yeah. But I don't see others, are the also others on line?

Stephen: Yes there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 people on the channel.

Miran: Okay. So just to continue each group was from the beginning completely independent but we had some kind of common ideological background for certain things. But we have been also very different and we still are. So the NSK so first different first group agriculture and in the beginning of the '90s in 1992 it got switched from organization NSK to the State in Time in fact. So speaking of Irwin it's getting very much with contemporary art today about ideological elements in art itself. And especially we have in interested in the conditions of art and production of art, at least in Europe, and we did many project related to this issue and this field. NSK State in Time was kind of initiated by [inaudible 07: 29] being the buddy and NSK Embassy in Moscow in 1992. And other NSK groups accepted this also as a platform to their own activity.

So just recently we had a conference of the NSK Citizen in Berlin this was in October and at the moment we're working on three of them covering the Congress. And we also lately do an exhibition related to the NSK In Time which one of the Soviet's still own in the city near [inaudible 08: 14]. This was very, very brief introduction and I think it's better maybe if you just Scott or Stephen ask me some questions you think that could be interesting to the public and then speak more to your ñ yes I hear you.

Stephen: Miran I have about 2000 or 3000 questions so let me start with a really basic one. I think it's the first time in our yearlong series that we've talked to people who self-described as a group of painters. You didn't say we were a group of artist you said we were a group of painters. Could you elaborate on whyÖ

Miran: Yes.

Stephen: Öyou say that?

Miran: You know what I would say we studied painting because the academic academy in Vienna was a quite conservative 19th Century institution and we studied painting what's what our profession. And our diploma it's written that we are painters actually. So of course today everyone is using many people is using, especially just being an optimist. So we are just professionally we are painters. Of course we have been working now also in the media but primarily our education it's based on the practice of paintings.

Stephen: And painting continues to be an important practice where you find.

Miran: Of course all the time yes. All the time. All the time is a kind of red line from the beginning yes. So we started our first even exhibition ever paintings of course yes.

Stephen: I think particularly a line with the Su'prematist movement. There seems to be sort of an ongoing relationship with engagement with Soviet Su'prematism, Malevich and so on. Am I right about that?

Miran: Well yeah. Malevich Su'prematism was, let's put it this way, important part it is an important role even in practice but it's not the only one, it's one of them. Our paintings many times the multitudes are taken from I would say modern Su'prematism then also for totalitarian style conceptual app and so on. So you have a very wide I would say, very wide space. Also we are taking material from I would say Alpinean culture and motifs which are around s basically yes.

Scott: You know Miran would it be okay to talk a little bit about Irwin NSK's overall approach to embracing or just adopting a kind of access. Stephen wrote a little bit about it in this introduction and I know other people have written about your approach. I'm asking that because you're talking about motifs and to the casual, well to someone who might not be familiar with work it might sound as if you're just representing things.

Miran: Yeah okay. I would tell you maybe I can answer you like this I'll explain to you. I mean the motifs we are using in our works this is not based on the identification with these motifs it's not this kind of equalistic perception. For instance, we do [inaudible 12: 32] now and sometimes we would have a deal but we don't believe in deals of course you know. I mean we don't believe in deals. So basically what is important in even most relations between certain motive constellations and such and such isn't, so basically what is important is not what you see. Basically for instance we don't paint it here we think that motif is such a glamorous strong motif but it is a point of preference. It's just like something what is around me and it is never did itself.

We have for instance one of the paintings on the abstract painting. So it's always the motive for doing the relationship with the background. So in our work it's the view is the one who kind of at the end propose his own story.

Stephen: Do you have any images you could send us to a link? Actually I didn't find a specific Irwin Web site I found the NSK site I found reference to Irwin. Maybe it would help some people to see some pictures of what you do.

Miran: Yeah I must say that I'm very bad to describe so I have to say I could add things from my computer if somebody explained me how this works.

Scott: Yeah Miran. So let's see here. Do you see the chat where Stephen was just the last person that typed in?

Miran: I haven't checked your HTP ñ yeah, yeah I see this one. Yeah the check, yes, yes.

Scott: Yes and Stephen just checked in the motive of the [inaudible 14: 35] important dot, dot, dot. So if you write a littleÖ

Miran: Just the motives are very important. Just a moment I go down. Yeah I see it yes, yes of course.

Scott: Okay. So if you scroll all the way to the bottom and leave it at the bottom it will continue to automatically scroll for you whenever someone types in and you can just copy a link from your browser and paste it right in there and hit enter, return.

Miran: Okay but basically we don't have specific areas inside so maybe yeah I could send the link to the ñ okay I look at the web here our gallery site yes.

Scott: Okay.

Miran: There's some works. Just a moment.

Scott: Okay.

Miran: Yeah.

Scott: And here are a few links that we already have.

Miran: Just a moment. I'll send you the link yeah because ñ just a moment. Okay this will work yeah I'm sure. This is fine. Okay. I also have yes. So here on this link here which is a [inaudible 16: 11] you can see some of your work, some of your paintings and the latest paintings of monochromes is also one of his dear and okay. I have a question Scott, can you hear me?

Scott: Yes.

Miran: If here I have a command to send file so here I can attach a small image.

Scott: Yeah if it's not too large it'll go through Skype really well.

Miran: No it will be small maybe I'll attach one here, yes okay.

Scott: Great.

Miran: One or two in just a moment.

Scott: Okay.

Miran: Just a moment. Okay.

Scott: Okay that's coming through.

Miran: It's coming through. This is a typical a little icon namely a painting a mileage between two wars and probably it's three handed car or something.

Scott: Yeah it's almost here.

Miran: Yeah.

Scott: Oh really. If anyone can't see this we can upload it to the Web site.

Miran: Do you see it?

Scott: Yeah we do here.

Miran: Okay.

Scott: Would anyone like us to upload this online somewhere? Anyway if so just let us know and we can upload it.

Miran: I don't know how this works. You probably see a ñ okay so I can say something about, for instance this two works. The first one which is called Irwin Icon A this is called Mileage Between Two Wars. In fact on this painting you'll see basically two female portraits, you'll see the mileage to cross it and you'll see basically the two statutes, which looks very Nazi because they are before the Nazi. They are from the first German, the first World War in fact. And basically it's a kind of sandwich you see that the image of Su'prematism is in between realism.

And then on the second one you see, as I said before you see the deal on the account objective the fine abstract paint I mean this example from '85 or something it's earlier in the room basically. Okay any questions?

Stephen: Yes I have a question.

Miran: Yes.

Stephen: It's a very strange aesthetic that you have. It's a very complex ñ remember when I went to see Live Box the band for the first time it was also very strange experience for me because it appeared to be fashionable but it wasn't obviously. I think it's what [inaudible 20: 33] refers to over identification.

Miran: Yes.

Stephen: Where did this come from? How did it happen a whole bunch of the graffiti arcade and from the street arcade and from sort of political theatre and really hardcore sort of heavy metal rock all came together as really hard aesthetic? Can you say a few words about the biggest reflex aesthetic project?

Miran: Yeah that's basically I would say over identification it's just not something what was just started was on a scale live zone it was already on the scale before but I would say that through live [inaudible 21: 21] accelerated. So I mean it's so connected to the crisis of language. For instance, with this kind of politicalistic language when you are saying that you are expressing will not express themselves in a positive language. And then basically the meaning comes out a little twisted because first of all in Yugoslavia the Communist Party called names and say I want to get out of the working class.

So the space of the Avengard was already occupied so you could appear only as retro Avantgard. And basically this over identification matter was how to say it was more for that too because the viewer had to construct his own meaning. And you should care for things; you should follow all these things carefully. As usually would say except of the aliba, they are not the answer, they are kind of question marks. So the public it is true that we said Stephen that when public come they were confused they said "What is this? Is this like a ñ there's something odd about it, something to reiterated not just some but anyone who go closely to the content or to analyze these it was clear that this is not artistic, they're not artistic elements. But basically using this method of over identification was very, how to say purpose to make the public the older thing. Hello.

Scott: Hey yeah we're here. I think everyone's just listening. Yeah I am ñ this was one of the most interesting things to me about all of this when I first found out about your work when I first learned of you.

Miran: Yeah.

Scott: I think it was also very I think very interesting from a I want to say, well from a western perspective, because there is well our version of over identification was kind of like Andy Warhol's kind of embrace of capitalism but it's something very different I think what you guys were doing. You're not really ñ I mean you are using art historical imagery but you're not really making art about art really. You're always occupying a position of artist; well you're using the role of yourselves as artists in order to look at other things.

Miran: Yeah. I mean basically we do have very different roles in NSK. The liable politicians of that era is the chronist like painters who are doing like chronical somehow, commutation whatever you want to call it, and to see if they're presented the ritual, the religion. So we have very precise roles in fact. And basically even when lately it's not as much connected with over identification. It is to a certain extent but it's also very much interested in the deal of construction to construct our own reality our own conditions. So the [inaudible 25: 52] has this meaning and also how we deal with the issues of the artist in Eastern Europe it's very much about art. And of course through that it's political through art not through language or the political you know, or daily politics let's put it this way.

Greg: Miran this is Greg at Basekamp. I'm wondering if there's some discussion on the chat in regards the context that your work is, within the context of your work as its specific to your geography, your location. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how the work is received locally in Slovenian and how it's sort of perceived around the globe.

Miran: Yeah.

Greg: Because I know sometimes those things can differ.

Miran: Of course, of course. No, no I can tell you and you just stop me anytime if I'm going in the wrong direction or I didn't understand the question, basically the perception of course NSK, and not only NSK all the groups that I have [inaudible 27: 02], was very different from recent, especially Eastern Europe or Western Europe in America. For instance when you go to Moscow immediately understand what we're talking about. So they immediately understand the humor in the live box or NSK work or so on. While for instance in, I don't know, Germany training then [inaudible 27: 27] matter is it you know.

While I think also in the United States things were very different because people were not familiar that much with certain [inaudible 27: 41] and so on and society was very differently organized and so on. So yes I mean basically our concept never, I mean we never used this kind of ironical moment on the first, let's put it this, we were not ironical on the first side so everything on the first layer was did the serial. When you go more inside you could reach other layers and so on. So basically of course it was a lot of misreading and misunderstanding and a [inaudible 28: 22] but we knew that this would be part of it. So basically we would have people all the time pro contra and basically for the most of the people it's clear that the totalitarianism in 20th or 21st Century would not appear on this way. I mean the totalitarianism and the uprising of fascism on all this more contempt reform, in fact much more liberal reform.

Greg: Thank you Miran that was good.

Miran: For me it's basically because I'm not that good in English it's really difficult to talk and read all the chat. So if there's any interesting question or questions anyhow just repeat it to me by voice and I will answer so.

Greg: Yeah, yeah no I was just sort of picking out parcels of the discussion and thought I'd sort of try to frame the question on that.

Miran: Yeah.

Stephen: What I'm trying to do Miran is trying to run a commentary going on what you're saying as well so we'll have a textual trace of all of this. I was very ñ a few minutes ago you talked about politics through art. You don't do direct political action, you don't see yourself as a political activist.

Miran: No.

Stephen: And you don't just do art either. But it seems to me that one particularly emblematic example of your work is that east art map projectÖ

Miran: Yes.

Stephen: because that is something specific art competence to try and repossess a history from which artists, and particularly concept artists across the eastern part of Europe former socialist countries had been written out of history and they wanted to write themselves back in, in a certain way.

Miran: Yes.

Stephen: And that's successful both politically and art historically. So it'll really be great if you talked about that, particularly as I think you showed that or at least part of it at the Basekamp space.

Miran: Can you hear me?

Scott: Yep definitely loud and clear.

Miran: Okay. So I will talk a little bit about it yeah. Basically the Eastern Art Map definitely it's a very ñ on the flipside it's a very I would say almost traditional project. It's nothing else than like the eastern of the artistry. But at the same time because there is no such thing so the history of contemporary art in Eastern Europe for different reasons. I mean for the reasons that the art history only exist in the countries which possessed follow to create history. I mean history's always constructed. I mean these countries are countries which have developed a system or they have an old tools which our system is made of like the museum collections, collectors, artistic and basically there is no such things in Eastern Europe. So basically we only have kind of local methodologies about it.

So just the idea the history can or at least elements of the history can be created. It has some political indications in fact because basically to explain to you if you are an artist living in Eastern Europe and you are living in a space where the art system does not exist or exist in a very basic element then you cannot only be just artist you have to also create your context with it. And Eastern Map is just one of quite complex project where we try to create a context for ourselves. I mean if you do art this art has to be part of some kind of stories, some kind of miracle. And basically we just reach this position of ourself not trying to criticize maybe worse or whatever that artist from east are not included in these but because it's not productive. The most productive thing is and still believe that you start to create your own context, you start to create your own elements of your art system, and that's what we did with the Eastern Art Map project.

I don't know maybe Stephen should I go more into details about what it is what this project was or?

Stephen: In my opinion it's crucial to talk about it because what you just said there is extremely important right that if you don't have a context you don't have any art. Yes and you can make things ñ you can still political images until you're blue in the face you can show people starving to death and people hitting other people over the head with guns and you're not doing politics, and you're not doing art you're not doing anything at all because there's no context. And what's interesting about the Eastern Art Map is it's sort of you've created a context where there couldn't be one. So I think it would be good if you just grabbed the whole process.

Miran: Yeah it's fine with me. So basically I would say that Eastern Art Map was just kind of a thought of the ice mountain iceberg. Iceberg of urban project which we started in the late 80s basically, beginning of the 90s and we ended it somehow with Eastern Art Map. At the beginning of the 90s in fact at the end of the 80s when the Berlin Wall fell down many people ñ do you hear me?

Stephen: Yes.

Miran: Yeah many

[Audio ended abruptly]

Week 50: Mildred's Lane

Mildred’s Lane

I’m Christina McFee, I’m a new media and visual artist.

Wonderful!

Where is there?

I’m Scott, I’m here in Philadelphia in an apartment with my daughter Parker.

And there’s Steven there.

Yes, in Paris.

Hey Steven, what the hell? You’re in that apartment I’m going to live in next year.

Exactly, make yourself at home.

How are ya’ll?

Speaking for myself, I’m great. How are you Morgan?

I’m really good. I’m sorry I’m a little late.

No problem we’re used to that.

And who is this other person, Lanas Quinton?

I did the same thing Morgan, this is Greg. Hi how are you?

Hey!

Yeah, that’s Quentin and he’s also one of the interns here this year from Nice also with Matthew and they are at the Basekamp space with a number of other people.

Ok.

Interestingly, I’m at a Skype named Basekamp but I’m not at that space. But Basekamp is actually a group of people all over the place so, hence the confusion by that space by the same name.

This is very, but I’ll go with it.

Hey Morgan, this is Theresa here, Theresa Rosana.

Theresa!

Hey, how’s it going?

Listen, I’ve been carrying around a thank you note for my backpack, and I’m going to send it but I could never find where your address was. I felt embarrassed to ask to send you a thank you note.

Don’t worry about it. You just said thank you.

I’m so glad you’re here. Good to see you, I mean hear you.

Yeah, you too.

Who else is out there?

Yeah, well Maggie Lawson just texted in.

Oh gosh, I have to read and listen now.

It’s ok. You don’t necessarily have to we can kind of translate between the two.

This is good brain exercise. Can Maggie Lawson hear me?

Yeah I love you too, I didn’t want to interfere with the conference call but yes, I can hear you. I’m Maggie, I’m a visual artist in Oakland, California and I’ve been following the talks via the internet so. Looked like an interesting project I wanted to hear what you were doing.

Oh good! Welcome!

Thank you.

And ya’ll thanks Basekamp for having me here and I’m sorry I’ve been so hard to get a hold of. It’s just been a rough season for me. Anyway, let’s start because I know we’re behind schedule here. How do ya’ll want to proceed?

Generally we welcome you and we don’t usually go into a long introduction about what exactly you’re representing but usually it might be nice to make a, you know just briefly say, I know we’ve mentioned it to you for a while but why we’ve invited you as a representative of Mildred’s Lane and why we wanted to talk with you about that. In short, as you know, this year we’ve been talking every week, and if anyone else is here for the first time or not very often, we’ve been talking every week with different representatives from what we’re calling Plausible Art Worlds. Whether or not your project or the projects of the people that we’re asking to come on board are self-identified as developing alternative art worlds or rethinking art worlds structures. It’s useful for us to describe it that way because we’re looking at art worlds as the things that people build that both help in our practice to be able to be sustainable to actually exist as such and a group of people that helps define what art is within that context. You at Mildred’s Lane have been doing a lot of interesting things for quite a while and we really just wanted to catch up with you and talk with you about it, in the context of, how what you’re doing compares to, practically speaking, what’s currently seen as the art world or what’s generally on offer in a mainstream. So if you, I’m kind of pausing here, stopping and starting.

Do you want me to jump in?

Yeah, if you don’t mind just giving a brief introduction about Mildred’s Lane to people who might not know and maybe give us a sense of what you do and we can just kind of discuss from there.

Ok. I’m trying to see who… Ok, well, for those of you who do know, forgive me, but Mildred’s Lane is an ongoing collaboration between myself, Mark Dione, our son Gray Rabbit Puit and a lot of our friends and colleagues across disciplines. So, if we could just sort of look to, and I’m quoting someone but I don’t know who it is, “Let art go fallow” for a little while and just sort of rethink what that landscape is. Mildred’s Lane is a place where we’re just concerned with living, researching, working in an environment that’s loaded because it’s domestic. It’s a domestic environment and I’m going to talk more about that probably a little while longer but right now I just probably should say that it’s a place in upper Pennsylvania, north eastern Pennsylvania, a real crusty farm. Some of you… Can you hear me still?

Yeah, we’re just adding other people to the call periodically.

Ok, I heard that ringing. Some of you have been here, some of you haven’t. Theresa you can chime in and back me up on anything because she’s been here. It is unusual in the sense that, I mean I really don’t know what happened, but it’s evolved, co-evolved with institutions, with friends, with the community into what we call a new contemporary art complex city. It’s a really living, breathing museum we’re building with our friends. It’s an ongoing project, it’s been sort of slowly evolving over the last fifteen years or more and it’s become a site where there are active projects ongoing, and they are very slow moving and long term, but we have this 92 acre little parcel, upper Delaware recreation valley and it is very magical and I think that’s all I’ll say for a minute because I want questions and then I can go on.

Yeah, did you say it’s 92 acres?

92 acres, well it’s probably a little bit more like 95 acres.

Yeah, that’s not a little parcel exactly.

No, it’s not.

That’s quite a place. I was thinking maybe I could just bring up one of the things that was discussed right before you got on. I was wondering if you guys who organized Mildred’s Lane would see what you’re doing in any way as being, if you would see Mildred’s Lane as being interested in developing a kind of prototype alternative art world? Do you think that’s a fair thing to say or do you think that it should be distinguished?

No that’s unfair. Like I said, I would really rather the term art go fallowed because it’s really about what we call work styles, as opposed to Bruce Maus lifestyles, recomposing lifestyles. Work styles are how we as artists or practitioners from any discipline live and work and research in the every-day environment, and how difficult it is now not only to get funded to do that but to find jobs, you know teaching jobs. We found that it was incredibly frustrating terrain, all of our peers griping about teaching, griping about funding, griping about being taken advantage of or not getting paid and just frustrated with the bureaucracy of teaching. Really it sort of became a real discourse that finally we felt, well god dammit, let’s do something about it. You know this is a spinning off of all the institutional critique artists that are sort of our peers. But I’d really like to think that this is a moving on from institutional critique. I like to use more biological, universal terms like co-evolving. We are trying to now co-evolve with the critical 20th century and move into the 21st century and find alternatives. We’re not meaning to be any model. There are so many changes ongoing all the time. There’s no manifesto or statement or model that we want to make. I think that that would be once again repeating sort of those static critical positions.

You’re right. We don’t usually like the term model either.  We’re really interested in looking at examples and accompanying them and doing that ourselves as well. If I said models I probably was out of term.

No, but it’s a good thing to bring up and say out loud.

Yeah

Sort of nullify the term so don’t ever forget. Somebody’s got to go, sorry Mary Margaret, we’ll see you later. I’m looking down and seeing, Ok, some people are writing. We’re going….oh is he supporting it I see. I’m trying to see how this is working.

Morgan hi, that was my comment. I was doing a little bit of a commentary on what you were saying but actually I had a question that I just typed in a second ago.

Ok, let me just see it. Go ahead and ask it.

Well, you started off by saying that you’re involved with people from other disciplines as if, I mean by saying other you made it sound like art was a discipline too. I kind of wonder if art is a discipline or if that’s  a useful and relevant way to describe art because it kind of makes it, you know discipline kind of goes hand in hand with penitentiaries  and those kind of institutions. I kind of like to think of art as not being a discipline but although rigorous being extra disciplinary.

Ok, one, I think you’re absolutely right about that, but two, I think you’re absolutely wrong about that. Let me explain. I think that we’re referring to the way we thought about art in the past, especially between the 19th century right? That has just become a discipline in the 20th century, in the 19th century there was a more romantic view of art and going earlier in history obviously it was an employable subject. But not to take it on with such these grandiose or general perspectives that is a discipline such as penitentiaries because then you put, ok democratically, you put two penitentiaries next to science, biology, nursing and so on, so I’m not so sure that it’s extra disciplinary either. But, in the spirit, as you brought up, at creative time summit, I think they need a new explanation for the term. I’m not sure, I mean I think this could go on forever but, perhaps in this context let’s think of art as an overall life and you know what it’s potentiality is. Does that make sense?

That sounds great. I just wanted, I was being a little political. I hate to admit it but…

Some people like that. That’s good. That’s fine. Does that make sense? We can move forward and not spend the next hour arguing about what art is.

Actually we haven’t spent very long at all.

What we want to do is hear about what Mildred’s Lane is.

You know what? Mildred’s Lane is a home. Mildred’s Lane is a neutral home because of practices that we’ve chosen to apply here. It could be any home, it could be anywhere, but I think it’s our curiosity that goes there and I’m only going to try to use terminology that broadens the subject because it’s pretty mundane to say, you know,  here I am, I’m a single parent living with a kid in the middle of the woods. For some reason, you know, it’s become something else, because it’s not that simple. A lot of people have moved in and out of here. We’ve had…originally this property was bought with two other artists. They sort of had a very sad divorce. They sort of moved apart, moved away. Mark and I lived a life here and then also our careers really…other people pulled us apart. We were floating in these other drains, yet we still…Mark and I had a kid together, and so biologically we still are so centered here. Though I’m speaking for him I think he feels the same way. This is kind of a life project and it’s slowly evolved into a situation where we grew up with all of our friends doing projects here, doing presentations here, you know we made a long time practice of a very incredible (inaudible) dinners and then suddenly woke up one day and we were middle aged. And now all of our friends are in all of the collections around. We realized there was a moment for it, there was a place where this thing could fall apart. We decided, oh my golly, we’re producing history, why stop? I think that’s what it was, is just recognizing what the home, what this potentiality could be and so we proceeded. We proceeded a little more formally and took on all of the complaints and gripes (inaudible) All of our friends are now teaching in all of these hobbies, they’re deans at institutions, they’re presidents at these schools and they’re scientists, economists and geologists, historians writing books about this subject. So, why not turn the place into a place where we can all think tank and discourse these ideas out? So our crude site, which is this really crusty, crusty site, slowly we’ve been building into this future. I think it’s future becoming. There’s no end to it, there’s no statement that I want to say. It just is. I’m going to stop for a minute so people can chime in. I got to read what people are saying.

Is it possible to ask a question?

Sure.

I’m really interested in your speaking about this site is kind of open ended or endless and making history, I’m wondering about the spacial aspect of that. How have you worked with the architectural potential there at the site to sort of carry out these ideals?

Well, ideals is a problematic term too. First of all, it started out as a very democratic problem. We had four people sort of proposing what we could do with the site. So very early on, I think we got this place in 1997, very early on we were thinking of how to deal with it because it really had no electricity, no septic system, no well, no running water. So it’s been 12/13 years coming now where we have taken on each one of those things single handedly. I guess I’m the one that’s been living here pretty much most of the time. Because a person (Inaudible) in and out in a single day, so I’ve pretty much moved out of New York and sort of set up shop here and then just have been going back and it was in 2000 when I actually had a baby and I pulled out of New York all together and then just been solidly working on this as the site architect but in a broader sense of the term architect, as a sort of a moveable collective. The site’s been opened up to friends to propose projects that will keep the landscape inventions. Really opposing the traditional sculpture park, blob art kind of situation. You know what I mean?

Sure.

So everything that we do here is active or interactive, every folly, every little building, every art project that never went anywhere, that got shipped back to us and we’ve rebuilt here, has become a dwelling for a visiting artist or visitor. We even have a little stack of little projects that Mark and I both have out in the construction yard, we call it, that still have to be produced here. But it’s just a matter of time, money and man power.

In a way you’re saying that there’s a kind of a, what I’m hearing you say is something about new kinds of habitation or domestic habitation is a big interest.

Definitely, creative domesticating, I refer to it. I think the domestic environment is socially and politically really potent right now. Really thanks to our economics and our global situation. There’s this rash of interest (inaudible) time and I think it’s really (inaudible) that people have taken it on and we’re not the only ones, by golly, and I support every colleague (inaudible) that are actually intending to turn their homes into a site of discursive, critical discursive (inaudible). But yes, the place….

So you’re…I’m sorry go ahead.

No she asked, so go ahead because I’m going to go on describing the place for her.

Yeah, I was just going to say, so you see….I’m sorry I’m having a difficult, difficulty talking right now. I have a three year old crawling on my back. Hold on a sec.

See, see what I mean?

I know. I know.  So yeah, what you’re describing is an idea of a

It looks like you’ve been sort of the translator here. I’m backing up the

We often do that because

It’s a good record.

Yeah, and it’s helpful for people that don’t always get the best audio and it keeps a syncing between what’s happening on the text chat and the audio chat.

You know what let me qualify a couple of things here because I’m reading the archives and it sounds really silly. “We are making history.” Let me back up two steps and say that our friends who are doing projects here became sort of think tank projects and then got spit out into the art world. Ok, let’s use that art world for a moment. Such as, let me use the “Elephant Smith” project that was at the public arts fund in New York in 2005. Huge success, huge project, got a lot of press. The 2004 version of that was kind of the dress rehearsal as I often like to think it as. Where she experimented with the idea, here build a site first. I think those kinds of things happen here quietly before they move into the world where people are actually trying things out. Allison’s was particular success, also there are people who have been our friends then  to have attended events and discourse this year who have now proposed projects such as Jasai Midwaney, he has a glass pavilion on proposal and it’s just a matter of getting the funding to do it. Although, what we’re not keen on is looking to the art world for funding. What we’ve tried to develop is a real interesting co-evolving situation with institutions. So the very frustrated terrain that we make our livings in has suddenly got on board and supported our efforts and set up scholarships, programs where they’ll send students to help us create that Jasai Midwaney project. His is not on the schedule for next year but it’s coming up pretty soon. It’s a very convoluted and crazy thing that’s going on that actually the institutions are supporting chaos here.

Can I add to that? This is Carolyn Morgan, hi. I just thought I should add to the comment about the culture there. Just as someone who’s experienced Mildred’s Lane a lot and been helped by it. I feel like it’s a great place to have long term discussions with people who really care about issues that are overlooked in the, like larger, art world. So, the retail think tank has helped me incredibly because it’s a community pretty rigorous artists who are at the edge of the art world doing really great work and spending a long time together really. Just hunkering down and having all their meals together and talking about issues that are often overlooked so that retail think tank has helped me incredibly.

Let me just qualify. What she’s referring to, retail 21st century is one of several (inaudible), so at any given moment in a year there are many (inaudible) going on but what’s interesting is they’re strewn out they don’t have deadlines, they don’t have endings or beginnings, they’re strewn out over our lives. So retail 21st century is a project that’s been going on for three years and it’s evolving into it’s fourth year and Carolyn saying too…because I want to talk more about that for sure. I’m so glad you’re here.

Yeah, of course.

But yeah, jumping around, retail 21st century, Carolyn’s project grew out of that discourse, I think that Carolyn, you should talk about that. It’s like a little epiphany at the very first think tank and Carolyn…

I mean I can put a link to it but I was just saying, yeah. It’s kind of a specific example but it’s just a sense that people are there to help each other, think through the topics that really matter most to them. So, getting all the people, Christine Hill and Allison Smith and Claire (inaudible) in a room together for a week is really incredible. Like a lot of work gets done and generated that way.

Thank you. Anybody else? I got to catch up, this reading/talking thing is very difficult so I’m distracted.

Well, most of the text comments so far have been not really transcriptions but…

Yeah, I see, Ok.

We’re more taking notes I guess. You know I wanted to say that I’ve been sort of, I’ve kind of had a hard time giving…

Pardon me?

I’ve had a hard time presenting a coherent thought during this because of wrangling a small kid, but I think I’m in a better position where I can ask you a better question now. If that’s ok?

Please.

What I’m hearing a little bit, I mean there’s a lot of interesting things coming up here, but one of the things I wanted to ask, I guess sort of, bring up earlier was not to belabor questions about defining art necessarily or somehow focusing on that partly because it’s boring and also it may not really be very useful. But at the same time I think we’re approaching a kind of clash of terminology a little bit because, what I think I was really asking was about the kinds of alternative structures that you are helping to set up just with the example of what you are doing at house, and the kind of structure that you are proposing beyond just what you’re doing. You’re imagining a network of similar things, maybe not exactly the same but you know of independent initiatives. That’s a kind of proposal and I think, the kind of proposal that it is, is a proposal for another kind of art system, otherwise known as an art world. I think what I meant by clashing terminology is that we’re really not that interested in talking about what’s often referred to as the Artworld, with a capital A or whatever, with a capital T whichever. But really looking at the various kinds of systems that people are setting up as artists, not just the objects or “projects” that they are making but the actual set ups that you’re developing. I know that you’re an artist and you do all sorts of things but one of the things that you do is set up this. You know which I think you can see as an artwork but I think it’s also a kind of, a kind of structure and it has meaning for you and for the people that are involved but it also might shed some light on what else is possible. If you know what I mean.

Yeah, I agree. You know I do do a lot of things but if you look at my scope of work which actually on my website it’s really I mean, it has not been updated for several years because, I’ve been so focused on these things.  Life has been going too fast but the work is all about Mike. It’s about shared experiences, it’s about collectivity and you know modes of living, modes of being. In all of my writings and statements and lectures the most paramount thing that I put across there is being is the practice. Being is the complex practice and it’s taking on, you know the social and political head on. It evolves and I list them out, we’ve all heard it but I’m going to say it again. The environment, all of those issues like we are completely, I mean cemented in the issues of hydraulic gas factoring up here in Northeastern Pennsylvania which will absolutely poison our earth where we will not be able to have free border, we will not have organic food because our ground will be too toxic. Although the government keeps lowering the standards for certified organic where no one will ever know. You know, so, we are grounded in the environment we are grounded in modes of dwelling so, it’s not you. Modes of dwelling, where we’re rethinking what is comfort? Comfort is essential to our being, our being creative, our being intellectual. We need enough sleep, we need enough rest and we need comforts. It’s something I want to talk about later. Another one is clothing apparatus, I believe clothing is the intersection of all these discourses. If you talk about it historically, politically, socially, clothing is absolutely a terrain that my entire adult practice has been involved with. Clothing relates to dwelling, dwelling relates to clothing. Another thing and the most important thing, is creative domesticating, which I started the conversation out with.  I like to wrap all of these things up in what I call an ethics of comportment. The comportment of how we are, how we behave on this planet with all of these other human beings. So I’m furling the early language because you wanted to keep going back to this other art world. It’s not that so much as that art complexity again. It’s a complexity living, working, and researching. I bang this out again and again because it’s kind of a new association language. Does that make sense?

Sure. I think art complexity is an, I mean we’re not really stuck on terminology necessarily. I think, one of the main reasons that we actually decided to continue to talk about art worlds, albeit you know in the plural, is because I think, often a lot of our work and many people that we have known that have been doing something besides what you mentioned earlier that you don’t want to really focus on either and kind of institutional critique, people that are saying, “well we don’t just want to criticize what’s there we want to be involved in reshaping what’s in the world,” and part of that is working with existing institutions but also part of it is sidestepping them all together and doing something completely different, whether it’s off grid or…

The thing is that people really forget that, you know sidestepping is about, you know, doing it well in your own domestic environment. Doing it in the way you perceive and not following the mainstream. I’ve recently been doing a lot of study on Thoreau for this project is Boston. He speaks about how we follow this path, same path, you know and how he talks about falling into this rhythm of the path, from his house to Walden pond and he walks this path daily and it starts wearing a trench. Then he talks about how he visits the same place years later and how people sort of fall into that path and they just follow it. Then he talks and expels more about how difficult it is to get off the path, break habits and move off the path. Weed whack so to speak. It’s really beautiful to look at the way he (inaudible) Ironically, the 21st century (inaudible). Are ya’ll still there?

Yes.

In the mid 20th century and we look at (inaudible), it’s a great example, which is one of the first things we looked at when we started the retail 21st century think tank, which I want to get back to, Carolyn, if you’re still there. But it’s getting off the beaten path and creating new paths and rather not even walking but lifting up and sailing. Getting up and imagine not putting your feet down on the ground at all. What does that mean? Here’s a question, Keith Richards, “autobiographer recently”…Keith Richards? Oh I clothed him at some point. “the rest of the time he’s awake and as he said so to demoralize most people twice as much can we apply that logic to your kind of art practice? I mean you have turned” (inaudible). I’m reading this, “as you know I am a strong supporter of your practice, saying I’m a fan of your life. But, isn’t there a risk of someone cheapening life by declaring it to be art?” Excuse me but I never declared it to be art. “Isn’t there a real case to be made for demanding a specific anta logical status for art and for life, rather than conflating them? I am of few minds of this personally but what are your thoughts?” Well, first of all, I’m not saying my life is art. I’m saying let’s let the term art go fallow so that we can actually talk about existence?

Morgan I think I sorry.

Let me just finish this question. (inaudible) is great explainer, which I really like.(inaudible) I could move anywhere from here but I’ve just been in that head lately. “Declaring it to be art” It depends, ya’ll are falling back on this term that I’ve hoped we could let go fallow for the conversation because there’s no anchor. I would rather be on a ship floating forward. I’m not anchoring at any terms right now and I’m answering these questions one by one. He asks again, “Isn’t there a clear case to be made for demanding a specific anta logical status for art and for life?” Ok, let me back up. Keith Richards, you know, made a pretty cocky sort of statement there. I just wanted to ironically say that I clothed Keith Richards. Again, clothing becoming an (inaudible) to talk about and now I’m going back down here. You know, that’s been done again and again, “Isn’t there a clear case?” It’s been done. “Rather than conflating them”, I don’t know that I am conflating them but I am saying that it doesn’t matter to me what you call this. It’s interesting that the term art is applied, I do have a deep history with that term but I’m moving on. I have two mindless persons, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand the dilemma but God leave it behind.

Morgan, I think the thing is, this isn’t a new conversation for us. I mean, we’re not stuck on, I mean I think most of the people on this chat aren’t stuck on the term art.

It’s been the subject of your conversation in all of the Basekamp dialogues, right?

Well, in this particular year we focused on a specific question. Which is, so many people that we know are doing other things, but one of the things that I think, I mean I’m not really sure why you got into a work as artists in the first place. Maybe that would be an interesting thing to talk about.

How I got to where?

Wanting to work as an artist in the first place. Perhaps that would be an interesting thing to talk about at some point. But for now, I think, there should be no shame.

I have no shame.

Well, it’s not an accusation, it’s more of a general dilemma that we’re facing and I think a lot of people are facing, which is we try to do something different right? Something different that’s not on offer in the world that we’re not satisfied with because we know that often what’s on offer in mainstream leads to a certain kind of world. No matter how hard we try, regardless of what we do eventually, I mean we may have different outcomes from what we do, one to one experiences with other people, impacting certain communities, inspiring others, and so on you know. But at a certain point what we do, and if you don’t mind me finishing this, because I feel like we’re having a little bit of a disconnect here. Where you feel like we’re sort of putting up a barrier to discussion, I think that what we keep winding up with often is that a lot of alternative art practices continue to be framed within existing systems that defang it where that sort of channel in a very specific direction. I think what you’re doing, I’m super interested in your interests and your modes that you’re not concerned with art hardly at all. That’s great. These conversations are about, “hey, could you just sort of step into the conversation for just a moment”, about how what you are doing could be useful to other people. How you can continue to be, if you want to say, inspiration or affect or whatever. Other people who are just pouring out of schools, people who are channeled into art education systems because they’ve expressed more general creativity whether it’s connected to art or not. There’s a push in that direction right? And they’re going through these education bills and they’re being taught how to be a creative person in the world for these systems. So I think what you’re doing and what a lot of other people are doing are finding other ways to explore what it means to have to have a creative life. But you can’t do that only within the existing systems. You’re helping to create other ones and I think that’s what we want to look at.

I hope I’m not coming off defensive, really I was just getting excited. And sometimes my tone gets excited but it sounds really, it starts getting really, really offensive. It’s completely a conundrum to me that there’s so much interest in the way that these things are moving right here at Mildred’s Lane. But I think just to address what you say is that I think that critically, there’s a lot of hoopla around the term social practice. If I could just stab through that middle right there and what we’re doing, and Mildred’s Lane’s, what Mildred’s Lane’s doing is sort of lumped into these modes but I don’t think that we’ve been doing anything….now my son is starting to get me to giggle and distracting me….I don’t think that what we’re doing has been anything we’ve been doing for decades, but terms sort of catch up with you. Terms follow people, you know, the trend of terms. Let’s just, you know, I want to drop the term forecasting  mechanisms which I’ll get back to later if we can get back to retail 21st century think tank. But these terms are dredged up for purpose, they’ve become co-modifiable. Art is one of those terms I’m afraid to say, in the 21st century and the 20th century even. I think that that’s very suspect. What I have to say to those people who are sort of making those decisions and moving into those drains is, who and what are you doing it for? I’d liked to ask a series of questions. Who and what are you doing it for? And another question would be, who is actually in control or who desires control? Are you able to live poorly or humbly or do you desire to have money? What are your motivations for these avenues? And most of all, where is that money coming from? I think that those are questions that interestingly the world of non-profits are particularly interested in, but I don’t want to be in the non-profit world. I mean, we’re going through this terrible growing pain of do we, don’t we, do we, don’t we. What is it about the home that is somehow more extraordinarily and potent socially and politically now then ever before? That’s the question I’m interested in and that’s the question I’m interested in sort of keeping up in the air, because I think the home, domesticity has this new potency that we should be moving toward. I laid out a big section there and I want to take out each one of those questions but somebody interrupt me so I can re-gather and proceed which way we want to go. Who’s Parker? Hello? Is anybody there?

Yeah, we’re all here. Parker is Scot’s daughter and I think…

Did everybody leave?

No, we’re all here.

I was on such a rant, everybody left.

No, no. Scot had to step out for a bit to do some fatherly duties but…

I understand. I understand.

Listen, there’s a couple more questions, Morgan already, you’re just like a, you know it’s like, you just sort of stoke our questions. I think Christina has one. Christina you want to ask your question out loud?

Let me read that. Shall I read it out loud, Christina?

Sure go ahead.

Volume 0 the spacial ocean is a design…

Alright, I’m back

My god I was answering all these questions and talking and no one was there.

Well sometimes it works this way sometimes it doesn’t.

Christina, I was sitting there having a whole dialogue with your question

No, I can now. Speak, Speak.

I was going through your whole thing for the last 5 minutes.

Oh cool. Ok, well sometimes I write better than I talk. I don’t know, sorry. So I didn’t say that I just wrote a note.

I was ending up with Hidigir’s dwelling and I follow you and I understand. I think it’s a very important term that you introduced and I know that people have a big issue with Hidiger. Get over it you know, he did have a brilliant idea that we’re still reeling off of it and I think that’s where I go back to being, although it’s not the right of being necessarily. It’s so complex now through Fuco and Deluse and above all Bruno Lauture. I’m more interested in moving beyond. I’m not so interested in (inaudible) but actually dredging up what’s good and seeing what’s in the funicular tradition.

I think that’s…go ahead. Yeah, I think that this idea of trying to use what’s good and take it to a new place. That’s kind of a really core value and sort of a critical design project.  So I think that this is where it excites me about what you are doing, whether you call it art or life, it kind of doesn’t matter.

I call it work styles.

Exactly and I think when you combine a little equation or a little algebra here of work styles X dwelling =what? I mean it’s like going into some kind of interesting potential space of development in which you’re continuously architecting something new. That’s why you say that it’s history but it’s not ending. So, which is kind of an oxymoron and yet is something that you’re actually doing in a pragmatic way. That’s really exciting.

Well, I’m excited. I’m excited that people keep coming and keep creating due discourses and just being a part of it. We’re opening a new project, Carolyn, are you still there?

Yeah, I’m here.

We’re opening a new project. In our third year of retail 21st century, which is one of the sessions during the summer think tank, that she reeled off a few names who are involved with that Claire Pintacos, Brian Hongs, Christina Hill, Carolyn Hopkingsberg, Allison Smith, Lacey Wosney, Carolyn fill in where I’m filling the blanks, Deena Cockoronas,

I think you’ve had a lot of them, I don’t know.

It goes on and on because you know, it’s sort of a, it’s open ended. All of these dialogues are open ended but we’re entering a new phase that we’re actually moving and tackling the old notions of community and new notions of sociality on to mainstream USA in a little village called (inaudible), New York. Upper Delaware river, just about two miles from here, so it’s very convenient, so that we can think tank and move in. We’re actually going to rent a store front and do a series of experiments. There’s also a class that I’m part time faculty this next season with a class of students that are going to be involved and becoming the diplomats in this project where we develop relationships in a community. Every artist that does a project in the store front space, which is still indescribable because it’s not a gallery, it’s not a store, we will make product, we will have events, we will have food, we will not do other things. I mean it might be just quiet for a little while, but whatever happens in this store front space, the one rule is that the artists have to collaborate with someone in mainstream USA. There’s a weaver, a real estate agency, two home stores, there’s a knitting store, two cafes and a restaurant, there’s a furniture store, there’s a funeral home, a couple of flea markets, there’s a hardware store a lumber yard, it’s endless. It’s a real mainstream USA that has sort of been gentrified into this fancier town for part time New Yorkers to come to. So, it’s a very interesting site to sort of play around with. You want to chime in Carolyn and answer questions about and I can go on? Or I’ll just keep talking.

Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe we should see what people want to ask.

I thought I’d let you know, there’s a couple of blurbs on the Mildred’s Lane website under “Town & Country” about what sort of the general interests are of that think tank but in a nutshell it’s about the future of exchange, future of exchange and collaboration. And what that means to us. How can we sort of take hold of the way things go? I’m not seeing any text here. Basekamp, “back in action sometimes I feel like I’m talking to myself”, I was talking to myself. “How do we get involved?” How would you like to be involved? What interests you about it, Greg?

Everything, I’m just curious what different capacities folks can get involved. You know, like if we’re not close by or…

Well, we will some kind of internet interface there. That’s one thing, I think, that’s crucial. So, I think we’ll have an ongoing dialogue in the space like this, so that people can chime in and say what’s going on there and then someone, whomever is ambassador of the space, will be involved with that.

Ok.

I was also thinking that if any of these people listening are interested with helping in web design or helping with research online and things like organizing conversations, they could help that way.

Yes, that’s definitely true.

Is there a time frame for this to take place?

We’re starting the ambassador rounds in January. We don’t have a space secured yet, although there’s one pending. But I’m actually being a little open. We will have office space down there, as soon as, probably within the next month. But we won’t have the store front probably, our opening schedule is May 2011, hopefully. If all things go well and we get the space that we’re sort of hanging on to. But there’s some complications, you know, mainstreet is pretty tight. We’re sort of waiting to see what’s unfolding here.  We will be present in the office at least by February or March at the latest.

By we, you mean Mildred’s Lane, the office?

Well, actually this entity will be called the Mildred Complexity and “ity” at the end of the word complex, it’s like complex but “ity” is in quotation marks. I mean excuse me in parenthesis, so the Mildred Complex really but it’s a complexity.  We are not seeking non-profit, but we will be a not for profit endeavor. That is going to be an interesting discourse. How will we proceed to (inaudible) subject who the incredible rigid terrain of capitalism. I mean I think that there’s so many modes that we have not yet experienced or experimented with and I’m looking for that kind of discourse. How do we get around these big boulders as (inaudible) bolder and the bolder of capitalism, realizing that it’s there, that’s absolutely infected the entire world and how do we proceed around it? Who’s giggling?

I have a question and I’m laughing, I’m sorry to be laughing, I do apologize but I’m wondering how people are going to pay. Are they paying their way to come to this? I mean like if you’re far away, how does one afford to spend time in the Complex(ity)…

What do you mean pay?

How does it get paid? Let’s say a person, how can a person manage to go to this? What’s the financial basis, I mean not all financing is capitalistic so I’m just trying, it’s just a pragmatic question about how we can do this that’s all I want to know.

Let me clarify and I’m referring to Brian I’m assuming because he’s the one who speaks about capitalism being a fact that we have to live with. That we sort of work with it and figure out ways around it. I’m interested in how do we find new modes of exchange and just what retail is interested in. Carolyn Woolard’s one of the most brilliant examples to date out there in the world inventing new modes of exchange with her peers. But, Mildred’s Lane proper, two things, the Mildred Complex(ity) and Mildred’s Lane proper most of all is a generosity endeavor, you know by myself and Mark Dion. Interestingly we’ve gotten institutions to support it by creating scholarships to send students here every year and there’s a handful of incredibly innovative institutions that have bizarrely created scholarships to send students here every year. That scholarship money goes towards paying minimal travel stipends for our friends to come, pays for all of our food, it pays for all of the staff, which are not servants, they are actually collaborators and they are working hardest amongst us and it basically barely covers the cost. There are a bunch of independent artists who also apply and we select and they pay to come and they pay their own way. But ideally I like to go to, again continuing the collapse of institutional critique and moving forward into something that’s more co-evolutionary with institutions. I like to think that institutions can quietly come up with these funds to send people here. The Mildred Complex(ity), on the other hand, will be a complete experiment in how it supports itself. The first investments are a generosity project by me and my collaborators which will partially be the students and other artists like Abby Lutz, Athena Congronis, Monique Millicent, other artists that are in this area but, that will be helping to create a series of what we call “Rent Dresses”, so we’re going to create a series of dresses that are dredged up from whatever we find here at Mildred’s Lane that will be sold off for each month’s rent. So, that’s how we’re going to support the overhead as we come up with kind of a thread product, like the “Rent Dress” idea to sort of support what the needs are. And we’ll come up with a in each case that there is a need. It’s just that we’re interested in other modes of exchange which might include barter. Such as Carolyn’s model. It might include monetary exchange but services for services or whatever that will be, I mean it’s as yet to be defined. There’s all of this is up for grabs but, each event based and discourse based practice that happens in the space, it might not be tangible. Whatever it is will just have to come up with a small mode of supporting itself and supporting the artist that goes with it. We’re also going to try to make an alliance with Delaware Valley Artist Alliance which is also on mainstreet. We hope that we get some support through them that will help our meager endeavors. But it’s a tire experiment, it’s a tire experiment where we are completely open to ideas and if you’d like to be a part of the discourse we welcome it.

So you’ve asked institutions for help and you’ve gotten educational grant funding…

No, we have no funding, none.

You have no funding from, sorry I was under the impression that you explained that Mildred’s Lane itself was partially funded by grants that support students,

No, they’re not grants

some undefined students like high school students maybe or sometime student. So I was just wondering whether there’s some artists who are not students, how do they…they would need to get there somehow right? Whatever project they might have would be able to translate into some type of goods for exchange, whether by barter or into monetary system, in some way their object or project or something has to…

Let me clarify, and I’m sorry I presumed that you knew…Mildred’s Lane is not grants actually. MFA or EFA students in schools all across the world, they are not all art schools, they’re universities, they are science students or history students they are trans-disciplinary students who come and live and work with our artist friends who are dozens of practitioners again trans-disciplinary all around world come and discourse and lecture, do seminars, workshops, whatever, it’s kind of the wild card of education. You have some intellectuals from Princeton suddenly who want to propose to do something as a one week think tank and you know we take it on. We collaborate with them. They’re generally, you know our network of friends. So, that’s what I’m talking about institutions and colleges, those educational institutions are now sending scholarships, making scholarships for students to come and live here with us in these little intensive sessions. The Mildred Complex(ity) on the other hand is a project that’s an outgrowth of one of those sessions. So there’s several different projects, discursive projects that happen throughout the year. Retail 21st Century is just one of those that Carolyn here has been a huge part of and the Mildred Complex(ity) is a new experiment that’s grown out of that. So, I’m just speaking about that one problem, and that’s still being defined. I’m not the only one that’s doing this. It’s a group of people who are sort of weaving in and out…I’m sorry I’m reading at the same time…”university grants”, they are not grants, they are scholarships. “Bartering” bartering is always everywhere, you know, it’s just a natural exchange of being, you know, you’re just like figure out what feels right for someone to do something for something in exchange for something else. Oh gosh, is it almost time? It’s late.

Well, yeah, Greg was just asking…and it always goes by so fast and we start….

I’m sorry I was so late, I’m embarrassed about that, it’s terrible…

I wouldn’t be seriously, don’t worry about it. Often we don’t start till about then anyway. But, yeah, guys it’s been really great. You know, Morgan I think there were a few things that have come up through this conversation that would be great to follow up on and if not in another chat like this then in the publication that we would like you to contribute to for next year.

Well, that’s great. It’s really rich, it’s fun. I wish I was a little more organized; it’s kind of like what’s going to happen?

No, no we definitely don’t want it to be more organized.

It was kind of off the cuff and I thank you all for being patient with my long diatribes.

Yeah, it would be great for a number of us to come up visit you sometime soon.

I reckon you’ll have to come up and present this project. It will be really interesting, next summer.

Cool, yeah, if we can find a time to do it. That would be awesome.

Who’s still there?

I’m here but soon coming to the east Delaware River.

Yes, upper Delaware River.

Upper Delaware River, right.

Yes, Steven you got to come when Claire and Bryan are in their house.

Yeah, that’d be really cool. I mean Bryan was telling me how really fucking fantastic it is.

It’s really strange, very unusual little thing and I’m really proud of it and I’m glad to be in dialogue with you folks about it. Thanks a lot for questions, thanks a lot for your comments and I’m so sorry if it was a short space to not really articulate all the details. It’s really a complexity for God’s sakes.

You could never do justice to any of these in two hours. There is just no way.

Ok, thank you.

Bye everyone. We will see you next week.

Carolyn?

Hey Morgan.

Carolyn, thank you for being there.

Yeah, I’m going to go have dinner with everyone in the studio now but I was going to say something about that. That you definitely showed me the social side.

You’re doing so well, you are the pride and joy of Mildred’s Lane. You have to know that. We toot your horn all the time, don’t you think otherwise. Go give Athena Cockoronas a big sloppy kiss for me.

Yeah, you need to come here. It’s not as beautiful but there’s a lot of love and there’s a lot of flowness.

That’s so great. I wish I was years younger sometimes. I got to go feed my kid. I bowed out on him because I forgot about this thing and I completely started this big stew and this big download on my computer…

Well, I think it’s low key. I don’t think it’s a big deal.

Thanks for being there.

Yeah, no, I miss you, I would like to see you and…

It’s seems like you’re always here when I’m not here.

It’s very strange, I was trying to help out Monique but then it seems like it’s all weird like Nathaniel Whitmore is all over her, their place. I can’t really handle him.

You know what, I’m so with you. Nathaniel, I mean he is really such a mooch. I don’t really like that scene. Poor Monique, I got to talk to her.

I used to like him but now I’m like every time I thought I was helping Monique I felt like I was crashing his party like he turned their house into his party and I’m like I thought I was house sitting like what are you doing here?

Oh no.

Yeah, like every time that’s what I’m doing and then what is he doing? I’m like why are you here?

I’m so glad you told me that because I think Monique is not into that at all. I don’t she’s into him being there.

Yeah, I mean he’s a bum. He’s sleeps out on her couch all the time.

He’s a mooch man. I know his girlfriend…

He doesn’t have a house…

He’s a mooch. Lonnie kicked him out. Lonnie is grey rabbit’s, she’s my friend and she’s grey rabbit’s teacher. She’s just crabbing about him all the time. But you know she’s, but they’re still lovers, so he must be doing something right. But she won’t live with the guy, she kicked him out. I’m sorry I have a lot to say about him maybe we shouldn’t be on this public Skype but…

Oh no, are there still people here?

I don’t think so, I think they all went…

Well anyway, let’s go eat and then tell me when you are coming into the city and…

Are you coming to New Years?

I don’t know. It’s a question. I would like to but last year we had this roof top sauna here and people really want us to do it again so, it’s a question. We got to figure it out.

Come stay with us for New Years.

I know I would love to but people are all into going to Coney Island and jumping in the water on the 1st. Kind of crazy! But yeah, sometime soon we need to see each other.

Well I’m going to be in New York more this spring. I’m staying home. I have just been traveling like crazy, I am so over that. I quit installation art completely.

I agree.

I quit. I am just going to make some dresses God dammit.

Yeah, Jenna told me that’s so great.

I’m really excited about that.

You do them so well, there’s no reason to not do it. Like it’s a gift you know?

It’s going to support the Mildred Complex(ity). It’s going to be good. That’s the way we’re going to support it. So, at least we’ll be able to afford the experiment. Monique and I were going to get together yesterday but I didn’t realize it was her birthday, so that was a total screw up. So, we’re going to see her probably tomorrow. But you know she can’t have that guy around when they’re having that baby. She’s got to go through a little incubation time in that house.

She’s got a lot to deal with.

Oh dear, when were you…

I want to be helpful  but I don’t know how.

Oh dear, yeah, you know, he’s probably threatened by you coming in and making your dwelling action too. Oh gosh.

Yeah, like we came in and I cleaned the whole place because it was gross because he was like leaving it that way. He came in and was like, “Oh you’re going to be here during my date.” And I was like, “What? This is not your house.”

Oh my god and what did he say?

He was just like just kidding. Whatever, hopefully he fed the animals.

Oh no.

Anyway, let’s go eat. I need to go to dinner you need to go to dinner.

I love you and I miss you dammit.

It was good to hear you talk.

Oh gosh, I think I, I completely forgot and he called me and I was so embarrassed and I was like oh my god I said, “why didn’t you tell me today or yesterday?” I just got home from a huge 3 week trip.

I think it’s ok. I think they just do it, it’s an informal chat. Nobody really understands how to use Skype seriously so it’s a little crazy.

I was not prepared, but you know there was questions and…

I think it got going by the end.

Yeah, thanks for being there and chiming in though. Your voice had nice direction for me so thank you very much.

No problem.

Give Chris my love and I hope to see you…oh I got mail from a friend of ya’lls.

Who?

Jonas something.

Oh, he’s a voyager.

Yeah, voyager. So, I’m going to send him a note back. I just have been catching up since I’ve been home since yesterday, so I’m going to send him a note.

Let me just tell you that we don’t really know him. He just got in touch through Collen through several Voyagers.

Collen I said Chris didn’t I? Stupid, I’m just reading a Chris.

I thought you meant Chris Kennedy. Oh yeah, Collen for sure.

I saw Chris Kennedy in North Carolina. I was at Elswhere.

Random.

Yeah.

I would just say with the voyager he seems to have a very strange girlfriend. Watch out.

Oops. Ok that just…thank you.

You will know, quick, I don’t know if they are really together or what the deal is but you will figure it out in like two seconds.

Well, he has to have some real heavy recommendations for me to take anybody cold turkey. That’s for damn sure.

Yeah, well we had dinner, he seemed nice. He was excited about Mildred’s Lane and I just said, “yeah, just write her a letter.”

That’s good. Thank you. Keep your eyes peeled. Ministry of comfort. We’re not going to have Monique. She’s going to be completely squiggled down with her little animal.

I know.

Good golly.

Yeah I’m thinking. But I really need to leave. It’s a family dinner and I’m late.

Be in touch.

Love you.

Bye.

Bye Bye.

Week 28: Miss Rockaway Armada

[0:00:00]

Male speaker: We as [0:00:02] [indiscernible] by the way or chatting we don’t have to but if you guys don’t stop mind it’s nice because that’s just,

Male speaker: Hello? Cool.

Male speaker: It’s nice because it allows us to…

Male speaker: Hello, hello, hello?

Male speaker: Anyway it allows us to like or [0:00:34] [inaudible]

[0:00:44] [background voices]

Female speaker: Would you just pass that too?

Female speaker: [0:01:54] [inaudible]

Bob: Hey it’s Bob.

Male speaker: Hey there, everything’s okay?

Bob: Yeah perfect.

Male speaker: Super cool. Let me just check this audio for a sec. How is it really doing today?

Bob: We are good this is like the eve Bastille Day here in France.

Male speaker: All right, awesome!

Bob: Oh no, no. mute my mic though.

Male speaker: Oh it’s super cool. You know I think that the audio quality seems to be pretty good so, no worries.

Male speaker: Yeah so welcome everybody we’ve got half a dozen people on the call today, actually not even and about the same number people here. So we are going to kind of have an intimate party. by the way for you guys let you know we use this mic just to help record this it’s sort of does make it feel like a game show but that’s -. Anyway so we’ve got some of the folks from Miss Rockaway Armada hanging out here, and we want to start off by looking at we want to start off by looking at this web page that we put together about their work, the reason why we are laughing is because the picture that was up was the two, three, four, five, six and seven from down from the top which is a birthday lap dance. Can you tell us a little bit about, a little bit about this?

Female speaker: My assistant is just totally a really flamboyant birthday lap dance. There are some lamb chops that were cooked on the barbecue and a bottle of wine and then we surprised the birthday boy, and then…

Female speaker: [0:04:37] [inaudible]

Female speaker: The maitre de took off his pants and started all dancing on the birthday boy and it was fun.

Male speaker: Yeah so [0:04:54] [inaudible]. Hey just for the record it was Scott’s birthday yesterday I don’t know if that counts?

[0:05:02]

Female speaker: Oh we didn’t know about that.

Female speaker: Oh no way.

Female speaker: Just for the record to get it on the record, we will say happy birthday to Scott. Happy birthday Scott, happy birthday Scott. What oh yeah, oh

Male speaker: So yes, I wonder if they can hear me over here, maybe. Maybe, maybe not but maybe just have this pass around. Yeah so today is one of those days I wish we had like one of those like radio microphones except for the fact that we just moved out this big industrial fan that’s blowing on us and a radar, radar mic that’s just it wouldn’t do well in this environment. So we’ll just have to keep passing this back and forth artificially slightly but anyway…

Female speaker: Maybe someone [0:06:10] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yes, someone will win one of the two PBRs the rest are [0:06:17] [inaudible] loggers. So yeah welcome you guys it’s awesome to have you back after like a year, have something?

Female speaker: Half a year.

Male speaker: Half a year, okay was it the…okay.

Female speaker: Yeah.

Male speaker: Okay, so since September so after half a year we are now half a year through this series of Plausible Art Worlds chats really run like I think like we 26 or something of 52 weeks of you know weekly events over the year. And we’ve been talking about you guys as an example of internally anyway as an example of the of what we are calling Plausible Art Worlds. Anyway for a while because of the kind of environment that you had set up. I know that many of you have a foot in different worlds you know it’s not just you know a complete session that’s why you’re like, fuck the art world or let’s just remove ourselves from life entirely and this is all you do I mean it’s a part of what you do but its seems like a pretty big part in addition to whatever other individual practices you have as artists and collective practices.

So I’m really interested to hear a little bit more about it, and I was just kind of hoping that you could share some of that with, with the people that are on the chat but also with us for you know for this recording for people to hear later and also this is a chance for us to chat and like think through some different stuff and maybe generate some questions or things that may be useful when we make the publication next year too. So, I don’t know who it feels like coming from that, I’d really like it if one of you guys or more or whatever would wouldn’t mind just to just maybe even just giving us a brief intro to the project, now pull up this page so that people know that you know just kind of talking it through, with us little bit.

Female speaker: [0:08:14] [inaudible] Yeah. I guess I’ll say that again, I don’t know if the microphone cut that or not  but it’s a project that is pretty cool and it voices many thoughts so the three of us that are here we will all give our corresponding or uncorresponding blurbs about that I guess.

Female speaker: Can I ask a question about the audience, I just want to know who we are talking to in general, how many people like this where everyone’s coming from?

Male speaker: Yeah so again sorry about this mic it is making this little artificial but I think we can handle that. Yeah you guys were just asking about the audience that you are talking to? Yeah I mean it’s like right now there are a few artists online and there’s a writer, Steven Wright who co-organizing this project with, there are possibly be other people coming in throughout but you know right now it just seems to be one of the one of the low attendance side, it’s actually one of the more intimate ones that they may be kind of nice since we are just sitting around [0:09:20] [inaudible] I don’t know drinking beer but then like as far too who will be listening to this will actually clean things up afterwards so, you know we’ll cut out something if you want us to of whatever.

Female speaker: [0:09:35] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Hey guys yeah so basically like who the audiences who we will listen to later I mean we’ll be variable, we’ll put a nice podcasts on our website but it’s probably just primarily people that would be interested.

Female speaker: Cool, so I am going first time.

Female speaker: Yeah. Anna [0:09:59] [inaudible]

[0:10:03]

Female speaker: Okay

[0:10:22] [background voices]

Female speaker: I don’t know what kind of…

Male speaker: Oh it’s okay yeah I mean if you don’t mind its maybe giving us a brief intro to this project for people that don’t know.

Female speaker: Okay I’ll do my best.

Anna: Okay so my name’s Anna and joined the [0:11:47] [inaudible] the second year that we were going down the Mississippi river on some boats that we made out of junk and I’ll do my best to give my very brief perspective on how things came together and how they just kept rolling along one way or another So the first year which was 2006 some folks mostly in New Yolk got together and developed though various ways which I wasn’t present for, but I imagine is sort of conversations in politics and sort of at night about building a boat and living on the river. As a collaborative project to me a lot of needs that a lot of people felt for a lot of reasons, since I wasn’t there I will just say that I joined them the next year because I had a long standing interest in living on a boat made out of crap that I would make and live on a river.

And when I found out that other people were doing this, it seemed like I should probably do it with them. But let’s see, this is one of the boats that was made the second year, this boat here. On the first year it was one long boat, I forget how long it was, it just 110 feet or something like that long, 130 feet long and it just cut parts that kept adding on and adding on and adding on. And then there was some [0:13:18] [inaudible] for a lot of reasons. So the next year it split into many pieces and the new boats were bought and parts were destroyed and sort of turned into a different creature. Yeah that one is the Garden of Bling, the Garden of Bling yeah it was, it was originally three people were talking about building this boat, one person wanted to have a garden and one person wanted a lot of blingy gold stuff and so they compromised and this is the Garden of Bling that came about as a result.

[0:14:01] [background voices]

 Female speaker: About what the project was? So should I like I was saying I’m having a hard time talking back and forth like I’m not very good at multitasking between different kinds of media.

[0:14:18] [background voices]

Female speaker: Me personally or?

Male speaker: Maybe you, yeah.

Female speaker: There were some people involved in this trip who have done some sort of boat trip before but this was the first thing that any of us have probably ever done along this lines. None of us really knew anything about navigating a large craft or building a large craft or could it would mean when we got there and there was this giant river and then we supposed to live on it, so it was yeah it was our first Mississippi trip.

[0:15:07]

[0:15:14] [background voices]

Female speaker: Oh okay. Sorry I thought for they were like seeing that is and it’s happening [0:15:24] [inaudible].

Female speaker: Okay, I want to hear what on the website and it says that you traveled on Mississippi and I guess you stopped and did like workshops and stuff like that? Just kind of curious that what kind of workshops and things like that did you do?

Female speaker: It was different year to year depending on who was there and what they wanted to do and what they were capable of basically pulling out of their ass. There were pretty much always had screen printing stuff going on for like kids like put stuff on our shirts and what, there were some - yeah, well I don’t know the first year they were different the second year they ended up being more like a little more junky a little more art oriented, I don’t know, the first year what did you guys do?

Female Speaker: Yeah first year along in the river would stop over in towns and mostly we’d be doing performances in the evening time so we would had all sort of instruments and commercial made and handmade instruments and we would design some flyers and put on wild crazy costumes and have some tall bikes and would roll through town at a huge parade, and we’d hang out for a couple of days and be like we are having a show, this is like whatever upcoming Thursday night 7:00pm come down and have a friend and just to get interest and get to know some of the folks in the town and sometimes on the day of show or maybe the day after we would host workshops for kids or whoever was interested.

Mostly kids from the local town would come through so yes I was definitely sub screening and wild animals was like the pretty popular one that people do or like the zeen making project or coming try and play that drum instrument that I made or try and yeah story telling lines, there was a girl that built the story telling booth and would [0:17:19] [inaudible] story telling booth and would ask people from the small towns we had visit to come and tell stories about living on the river, and she was collecting the stories for a while and she did and audio project about it.

Yeah, I got people do all sorts of weird stuff, yeah basically whoever had an idea costume making workshop, puppetry making workshops, stencil making workshops, it was like whatever you felt like doing that day. and we had a especially in the first, I was part of the first year as projects in 2006 and policy that we had body politic was very important with skill chairs. So you have and that everybody should be able to do everything, right? There are definitely certain characters that had more of a an ear for working on the mortars that could  handle the noise and the heat all the time and all the people that wanted to cook more and other people that like were more gong ho but cleaning up the toilets and things than others you know.

There are definitely certain crafts or skills or jobs that some people chose more over than the others but the general politic was that everybody should be able to do everything, everyone should like learn how to pick up and use whatever power tool you want to learn how to use, that we like people have different skills that you are able to share those skills. so be it crocheting or collage or playing accordion or playing a piano or wood cutting or I mean whatever that you had you are able to give and then be able to receive, we had very strong DIY body politics that we could make it happen and we’re trying to. Yes oh. Mutualizing confidence you have no idea. Right but I’m really so all the same level or you know trying to figure things out ourselves and sort of somewhat sustainable somewhat performatory manner. But trying to figure out trying to learn from each other what we did know and source out what we didn’t. So that we often have motor break downs and had to pull around a small town and you know have some really fascinating interactions with small timers from the motor shops and auto body shops and just learning a lot as much as we could from locals on the way, it was really fascinating for me at least. I spent a bunch a fair amount of time kind of running around, talking to people on the town to meeting them, learning their things at least having impact but yeah.

[0:20:04]

Female speaker: Of the bushing? Sorry, what did you say? Do you remember the day that we learnt the importance of a bushing? A bushing with a B? Yeah its part of a way to starter engages with the mortar and the engine wouldn’t start and we couldn’t figure out why and old mechanic from I don’t know , the last [0:20:40] [indiscernible] Iowa comes and he’s like, there is this tiny piece of metal it’s the breath of a hair and looks like a washer and it’s just its there like someone on the starter and it makes it work, you don’t have it, it doesn’t work, its tiny is a metal we would never figured it out without him.

Female speaker: Where were we?

Female speaker: We were talking on the projects so, it was a project based on a lot of ideals, I actually came into the project two weeks into the river trip so the bags were essentially they were essentially already built when I got there. I oh computer talk. Oh my God!

Male Speaker: Can you mute that for a second? And figure this out.

Female speaker: Wow makes, that’s very inspiring sort of noise band. Yeah I had been traveling around Europe for about a year and a half or so, squatting hitch hiking working on farms, all sorts of things and I actually ran into an American in Berlin named Maddy Apolis. he was this boy that was building a boat and I remember having this conversation with him, probably sometime in the spring time, he’s sitting there [0:22:28] [inaudible] crusty squatter kid from Minneapolis called Maddy Apolis and he was sitting there in this [0:22:34] [inaudible] sort of collectively run squatted bar space, and he pulls out this weird digital camera that he had. He was showing me pictures of his boat that built the year before and he’s like, ‘I got to go back to America, I’m going to go back to this boat and I’m going to take it down the river this time.’ Because he had spent like a year of his life building this thing and he had all these dreams of living in this boat and whatever.

And I just remember going home and writing in my journal, that day, ‘oh I met this boy he’s gone on his raft trip on the river and it sounds like such a dream I hope I get to do something like that someday,’ and I ended up back in the States that summer, and I started calling up a bunch of my friends from New York as I had been living in New York before them, and I was in the Midwest in Chicago, and I was calling them up and they are like, ‘hey we’re on Mississippi around the bunch of boats we built all these rafts, you’ve got to come out here and check it out.’

They were most of my closest friends that I knew from the city and I was like god you guys are all together all in one place doing this crazy wild thing , of course I’m going to come and visit you. and I showed up and I ended up staying for about two months and I was living and had been part of sort of loose network of people ever since participate in three years of raft projects. But it was a group of very young idealists who were frustrated by the way they saw life ahead of them and wanted to try to make a vision of their imagination happen for real and to many extents they did, we did and it was a very inspiring time.

Female speaker: Robin do you want to talk about, Robin do you want to talk a little bit about, you want me to talk a little bit about your experience?

Ariel: My name is Ariel by the way; I don’t think I properly introduced myself. I ended up on the Rockaway the first year kind of serendipitously and it’s like all of the things I was doing in New York just turned into being one circle of people doing this one thing and I was dating a guy [0:24:45] [indiscernible] and it was amazing, I was just flabbergasted that like that was happening, it blew my mind.

[0:24:54]

And if there was a possibility to do it again from the ground up I wanted to do it. and they resumed the project the second year and I helped from the fund raising point and was there the whole time but some of the magic, not just that the project didn’t lose it, the project didn’t lose its magic but the course of being on its course as a participant the whole time definitely changed the naivety I think I initially experienced when coming on board as a visitor and I mean we were idealists and we were naïve and we took on a lot and we did this crazy thing but there were parts that were like there parts that were scary and there were parts that were dangerous and we were very lucky in retrospect that things turned as well as they did there’s a big flood on the Mississippi in the second year, the water rose like 20 feet, the places that current increased was like a bog like full trees in the river. We almost hit a badge a few times like you know kind of almost went over down, lost control, crash landed how to get safer from hitting bridge by the coast guard. And all those people into it were very intense and very scary and very part of it and seemed to me I don’t know like in some ways like I don’t view them negatively in retrospect. But I think there are very real moments but somehow indicate like the kind of naivety smoothers hard like going into it.

I don’t think I would do a project like that again, honestly. I’ve learned to value my life in a way I didn’t when I’d started that project. I was going at it with like other ideal is on and like I really naïve idea of what nature was capable of and this hopeful like, we can get through it, there’s 20, 30 of us here, we’ll do it we are all capable people. But I don’t know in some ways I think I came out of there being really humbled by our environment and by our really armaturish understanding of it. And on the one hand I think amazing things can happen that way but I think you also have to reflect on them when they are done and realize that having that attitude indefinitely into the future is reckless. And I don’t know I think it was a very important informative and beautiful experience but like I said I don’t think I would make decisions that again, I like you know being alive.

Anna: This is Anna again; I thought that I would say something quickly about what Robin just was waiting through. The best part about the project for me was the actual being on the water and being in towns was just actual day to day of floating really slowly with 20 year 30 brand new best friends, making a village of fools and having to deal with each other in incredibly intimate ways but just also being on the water and having a piece of life that was incredibly removed from those other things giving us the time to like examine mosquito bites right stupid songs write some pretty good songs, come up with really silly puppet shows, make puppets just things that are I don’t know just so down and you move about five or ten miles an hour. Everything is really so down, and then about the crushing part, I’m grateful for that because I stayed where we crushed. I haven’t moved more than five miles from where we crashed in St. Louise.

Female speaker: For the last two years?

Anna: For the last yes since I maybe three years, so I’m grateful for that crush, something really sobering about crushing but it was actually more exhilarating than anything else. Yeah, well you see two coast guard boats with like 900 horse power between the two of them failing to save you from your own folly, or rush. So I appreciate that.

Male speaker: Where were you before that?

Anna: Me personally?

Male speaker: Yeah.

Anna: Where was I before the - kind of I didn’t I hadn’t lived anywhere for a long time before that happened those fairly homeless all over the States over the mid West and Europe a little bit I was in Italy in a farm for a while, didn’t really know that I wanted to be anywhere putting down any roots so putting down roots like could travel is like yes, this is the perfect compromise, I would build a house that moves.

[0:30:21]

Male speaker: Have you [0:30:21] [inaudible] at some point [0:30:23] [inaudible], sorry yeah I was just thinking at some point it might be nice to talk with a few other people here who are here tonight who are involved with the vagabondism project? Well it was a six week course through the public school that happened here but it was really a series of investigations, that were meant to you know pace the link for, for everyone else not to detract from what you’re, from what you are talking about but just to you know just to make a connection for maybe next time or you know the next month that you are here or whatever.

Something I think you at least you might be interested and maybe some of the other some of the rest of you like be interested in this idea of vagabondism kind of tying to oh I don’t know hobos for riding the rails to people though just transient generally. as a specifically as a life choice and there are a number of people that we know that are interested in something of a project along those lines that lasts for a little while. So it might be nice to talk about it later yeah so anyway. Now that’s interesting to me by the way that you well that you landed and you’ve been you’ve stayed there for a while, when you mentioned where you were based I was just thinking oh well perhaps that you were just based there for a while I didn’t know that the boat you know basically went tips up and you guys crushed and you like crush landed and you stayed put, that’s interesting.

Anna: Well there’s this other reason to live anywhere else for long periods of time as far as I am concerned but that was like the world says, ‘here’s my gift, I’m going to put you here in your own [0:32:26] [indiscernible] PS it’s an amazing city.’ So how could I say no to that?

Male speaker: [0:32:39] [inaudible] Another question but I’m going to hold on to it, Steven do you want to ask your question would you rather ask just ask it out loud and address it.

Male speaker: Yeah.

Steven: No.

Male speaker: Hi.

Steven: Yeah I can ask it , another one of the groups where  we’ve met where we met when we talked to invite onto Plausible Arts Worlds is this group based in the North East on India compare a ferry in fact it’s a collective of artists that are based on former governing ferry on the Brahmaputra river, and the Brahmaputra is actually an interesting river because it’s as big as the Ganjis and it’s the only river in India which is a masculine river, all the other ones are feminine. Anyways they are really interested in floating on this river and cruising up and down and doing stuff , and it’s a pretty wild river I mean its big, it’s as big as the as the St. Lawrence in the Mississippi where the Amazon actually.

Male speaker: Steven are these Indian people or experts?

Steven: Yeah, you know they are Indians, they’re they don’t consider Indians because actually North East of India is a, in decedent province of India and so they’re what you know southern what they call Southern Indians refer to as Natives. They are like first nations Indians I mean it seems bizarre to call Indians first nations because it seems pretty redundant but in fact they are and there’s a very there’s a war going on in this province that is called the Asan province.

Male speaker: I was in part of the North East in December actually, that’s why I ask.

Steven: Okay so I am telling you stuff you doesn’t need to know.

Male speaker: Well no I’m curious.

Steven: Maybe you know these people.

Male speaker: I don’t that’s why I’m asking [Laughter] yeah.

Steven: Well its funny because they are kind of a duluthian product of you know that showed up in this you know on the banks of the Brahmaputra river in the Asan province and they’ve got this they managed to say question this former government ferry, which they use as their platform for exhibitions and discussions and screening and all sorts of things. but particularly I like to float around on the river on the thing and I just thought that it was you know they don’t make their own boats but they have a kind of a very, you know when you say that you’re dream is to have is of a totally different world except that this one would actually float, I think that sort of describes their project as well.

[0:35:24]

So I may not you know this kinds of affinities might be worth pursuing because I only asked that because I saw you actually wanted them to do this some kind of project in the Ganjis which kind of you know picked my imagination.

[0:35:40] [background voices]

Female speaker: Yeah I actually, go ahead.

Steven: I’ll send you a link, hang on a second.

Female speaker: What did you say?

Ariel: Oh hi Steven can you hear me? I guess I hope so. So this is Ariel here I actually wanted to delineate a few things. we are talking from the Miss Rockaway Armada collective, there are a number of us that have worked on other projects which have included the swimming cities of Switchback seas which was a project designed by the artists Wound, incorporated a lot of the same people went down the Hudson river in 2008 and then another project that happened in 2009 that was also designed by the artists Wound, a number of us also worked on that was called the Swimming Cities of [0:36:35] [indiscernible] and so these are all different titles of  similar projects with pretty tight or loose depending on how you want to use it network of up to 300 people that had been involved in all these projects variably. and so the group that is doing the Ganjis river project, are building I think five stainless steel motor cycle powered pump tune rafts, and their plan was to go down to India and float down the Ganjis river but it’s not necessarily, I don’t think anyone that’s specifically doing that project right now had any physical ties with any of the heirs of the Miss Rockaway Mississippi projects.

It’s kind of confusing yeah it was like a snow ball effect it was like this one thing happened and then some more people came the second year, other people left, other people traveled and it was like this community kept on growing and growing and growing and some of the boat projects kept on drawing people back and some of them put you know people went off in their own directions and so the title is going under Swimming Cities Oceans of Blood, for the India project but it doesn’t  necessarily have anything to do with the Miss Rockaway collective.

And Miss Rockaway collective is actually now independently more or less become an artist group network of like in spirits and he’s gone off to do installation at Mass mocha and an installation that was commissioned by the Moue and the Van Apple museum in Nonwoven for a project about the heart land of America, that was happening in 2008 in the fall and that’s also what we are here doing right now as a Miss Rockaway Armada collective project for the Mural arts program here in Philadelphia which is how we ended up here. Does anyone else have any other question for us about who we are or what we do what’s happens what we think might have happened?

Male speaker: We are some of [0:38:56] [indiscernible] as were asked you again what if what kept you in St. Louise out of curiosity?

Female speaker: Well, I guess that I wasn’t really living anywhere particular before this but I have been spending a lot of time in Missouri in Northern Missouri in Iowa. And I met a couple of folks and sort of thought to myself men this is really a place that I never really thought that I would identify with so strongly. But then I kind of left and went off and had some ridiculous adventure and didn’t think anymore of it until we washed up you know in St. Louis. And I don’t know basically I went on this bike ride just like oh my God rest of you were ridiculous together sleeping in one tent get away in this place. So I biked into the city which is I don’t know 10, 15 bike ride and basically all this stuff that we had been dreaming about although like little post apocalyptic wet dreams that we had been singing ourselves to sleep within the past six or seven months or completely true about that city.

[0:40:22]

So basically I don’t know I, I just found a place that suited me, there’s tons of space it’s a jungle everything is fallen down everything’s beautiful, everything’s cheaper you just find it in the weeds and you drag it home and make it into something else and its basically exactly what I wanted from a place to live sort of like a my own desire to live somewhere difficult and beautiful and inhabited sorry. Or watch me.

Female speaker: So the whole boat crushed were you the only one that stayed, did the boat go on?

Female speaker: No.

Female speaker: The boats crushed and they came apart from junk to junk, there’s nothing left that except the patter wheel off of my boat and the feel because I raised about 2500 pounds and no one can move it. So it’s all gone everything is gone. anything that we thought that we would maybe leave like there are some people who wanted to build more on to it and have their own voyage to keep going down the river and the river just said no. It took back everything started again although all the pontoons that we had left were gone everything gone just the end. Yeah the end, yeah the river made up its own mind.

Female speaker: [0:41:49] [inaudible]

Female speaker: Oh yeah I forgot about that, one of the boats that was going to keep going down the river was parked on the Illinois side of the river. We were on the Missouri side and it was downstream that we couldn’t live it, we couldn’t get it off of the beach where we had landed, the coast guard couldn’t target we nearly killed ourselves trying a couple of times it was just insane. And so we left it there and we thought it was the Garden of Bling that did crazy looking one that’s on this web page here. and they are going to make into a Garden of Bling version 2.0 and it was going to be totally banging got a big mortar and stream liner and take all the weird junk off and then more mobile but then on New Year’s day 2007 or 2008 I guess that would be the Illinois fire department came and burnt it, burnt it to a crisp and that was that.

Yeah I mean they said they gave us warning I didn’t get a phone call but that’s life. It was sad but it was also okay I think they burned it yeah they set it on fire it was a nuisance, it was a nuisance yeah it was crazy. Actually have you guys heard of the floating metrinos [0:43:06] [phonetic] you know what those are? The floating metrinos are people that Miss Rockaway is sort of like clams in a funny way, it’s like predators of this idea they are people who have sailed all over the goddamned world on ships made out of junk across the Atlantic. Yeah it’s a family Papnetrinos [0:43:24] [phonetic] this machine of a person it’s just amazing visionary also crazy. And they sailed on this amazing ship to Ireland and then back. And then they also went down the Mississippi and some of our boats were based on their models because they have tested a lot of models a lot of them boats have fallen apart or stayed together and we copied the ones that stayed together.

So when I was a kid when I was like seven they came back from Ireland and I grew up on the costal long island and I lived in the port where the boat came into dock and it was like foreshadowing 20 years of foreshadowing because the town that I grew up in totally burned their boat. I was like damn I had seen that one coming. Someone else want to tell stories?

Female speaker:  [0:44:18] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yeah and there is kind of no lack of questions here I think it’s just that I was interested in what other people were asking. I was interested in the how you guys see what Miss Rockaway Armada is at this point you know because I don’t mean professionally speaking necessarily or anything like that just like - okay, yeah I was just replying on text. but I just mean from well from whatever I remember you are , someone saying that the Armada isn’t just a fleet of physical boats necessarily but in a way it sort of seemed to me at least like it’s a network that’s not just based on boats, right?

[0:45:18]

So the Armada is kind of an Armada of people in way you know yours it’s like a floating body of individuals you know who do different things together you don’t just go down the river you know you help each other with various projects, you evolve together in a different way to do a lot of stuff in your own individually. but that’s it seems like that’s part of what the group is and I was just kind of curious what you guys thought about that how these experiments extend into other areas of your life or how those others in your life kind of merge with this. Because we’ve been focused on this one particular project which definitely captures the imagination but also it’s not all of what you are doing it’s also not all you want to do. So I was just curious of that.

Female speaker: [0:46:09] [inaudible] Well I think it’s get complicated because we are continuously trying to redefine who we are ourselves and it has shifted a lot and there yeah you know we are still talking about it its nothing we are not the traditional forum of the collective and it has shifted a lot and a number of us have gone on to work on some amazing projects there are some wonderful bounds that have come out of those encounters that have had, there is a baby that came out of an encounter that was had you know a baby wolf who lives in California was yeah was here also in the fall at Base Camp and was conceived on the Rockaway project you know. There is there are record companies that have been created, there are fine fine artists that have found their roots and inspiration out of that moment and time of their life happening with all these other people around at the same time.

And I think that whether or not people want to like lay claim to it it’s definitely people spend months of their lives on these projects or even years. and I definitely spend a few years working on a number of boat projects and it has definitely heavily impacted the way that I view the world what I view as possible and the kind of skills that I have now and what I want to be seeing and I what I want to doing. When we talk about the network yeah there is probably you know some are between 100 and 300 loosely connected people across America that are travelling or stable and still continuously part of the community or have kind of found their own way that are part of the Miss Rockaway Armada of extended family of people that you can reach out to depending on what you need.

I mean Anna was talking to she  just got a truck and she is going to drive it down to a friend of hers who has now become a  professional mechanic so that he can teach her everything she needs to know and you know they met on the Rockaway project. and there is a lot of welders, there is a lot of sculptors, a lot of carpenters, there is a lot of painters, wood cutters, fine artists, herbalists you kind of acupuncturists, musicians you name it people who are coming from all mmh yeah people are travelers hobos, you, performers you kind of name it, it was  project that drew a lot of different characters and had a lot of different skills and spanned a lot of awesome trouble yeah I don’t know look forward to answer that.

Female speaker: What did you start with?

Female speaker: Awesome trouble.

Female speaker: No no no.

Female Speaker: Sorry where were you we are going.

Female speaker: Oh Miss Rockaway Armada.

Female speaker: Thoughts about it I’m sorry well I think feedback woooo! Okay thanks sorry about that. The kind of new thing about this is that it’s not simple and it’s not easy to like really talk about or even think about what it means to me or to any of us to be part of this group of people. because it’s just there is like so many different forces pulling on us to coming from each other, so many different things that could happen or are happening or that we regret happening even but it’s still compelling it’s like watching a train wreck you know it’s it might be terrible or might be okay but you just can’t look away because it’s that interesting.

[0:50:21]

So yeah I find myself drawn back time and time again and being like well friends I have this concern about this thing perhaps we should speak about this oh you are not listening okay let’s do this fun thing. but it isn’t even I don’t know sometimes it doesn’t matter because it’s so it’s kind of unusual to have a non geographically base collective of friends even if it’s - yeah I don’t know I mean I keep trying to think of ways for me personally to make use of and be useful to this group of people like when I bought that when there was a van actually a big diesel step van and making it into a cottage. When I bought that thing I was totally broke and I was like men dear Miss Rockaway everybody loan me $5 and then everybody did and there was like 250 people $5 and I bought this diesel van and it took me to months to pay back all these $5 loans. But it was great because that was an instance of collectively working in a totally complicated and excellent and successful way. I think we all struggle to find our individual spaces inside of this like sort of sass pool of friendship and it’s really challenging and really fun at times.

[0:51:51] [background voices]

Female speaker: We are not harpies. It is true that our identify as collective is changing and it’s kind of unusual I think in the realm of collectives that we don’t really have an over arching ideology politically, socialticaly, artistically that unites us. We are all very different people and like living very different lives in different parts of the country and the thing that unite us is this weird project we do together. But I guess like what Anna was saying, its more, maybe it’s more real that way because its more complicated and its  more diverse and you have to talk to each other on a fundamental level of like why are we doing this, is there anything that unite us anymore should I mean should we break up? Should we break up I don’t know.

Female speaker: [0:52:59] [Inaudible]

Female speaker: Or what is like is there a way that the collective - in many ways it has like I don’t think it would be possible really for the collective to break up its just I think become a very informal thing of what it is.

Male speaker: [0:53:18] [inaudible] do you mean that it’s impossible to break up because your criteria of what it means to be together is so incredibly loose? And that actually was one, and it was actually one of my other question kind of - okay one of my other questions was what’s really what do you guys what does it take to be a part of the group or what constitutes membership for your partnering part of the network has?

Female speaker: Its impossible to break up because I think we are-  we’ve lived our paths are entwined this way and like many of us are friends and even people who don’t really want to be friend with anymore we can’t get away from Rockaway could have to see one way or the other. I don’t know I think the Miss Rockaway Armada in some ways it’s still limited to the people who shared this boats experience although the network of people is expanding and constantly expanding and there are new peoples in our lives that are part of our network that weren’t part of the Armada. It’s just that the Armada does share these experiences that we’ve at a particular place in a particular time and very intimate yeah.

[0:54:50]

Female speaker: I will hearken again on this fact that we keep on saying we are not, we are hippies though no I mean that was a big joke that we had we are not hippies I swear, people sort of fancied themselves after you know a hobo punk, hobo punk perfomative kids but really we weren’t going for the non anti-definition of who we were people we didn’t want to draw boundaries it wasn’t about drawing boundaries it was about being free to do everything and anything. But there were certain aspects to the collective living that was a very unique experience to the Mississippi years that didn’t necessarily always on like the switch back or the [0:55:39] [indiscernible] projects. You know we shared meals, we had group meetings, we had sort of collective sleeping piles, we had you know we shared tents, we had shared medical supplies, we all took turns running jobs it was we were trying to be as fair and egalitarian as we possibly could and it didn’t always work we all had a lot of troubles but it was definitely a goal that was constantly being sort after.

So there were certain things that and we had this performances where everyone was encouraged to participate so we had variety shows and we had theatrical skits and we had puppetry shows and we had you know people learning instruments for the first time and trying to encourage and incorporate each other as much as possible which was very unique to the Armada experience. So it’s not just us being on some crazy sculptural raft thing on the river and being really dirty all the time. But sharing in all of these sustaining life experiences with a particular group of people is what has mostly been the bonding factor I think for all of us.

Also there is like I think for a lot of us and for a lot  of people in the world this is - there is a lot of like sort of romantic nostalgia for communal egalitarian you know village based life. We all raise each other and we get raised. But also there is the other nice side of that there is a practical side which is that sometimes when you live in a village you have to get along with people that maybe you have reasons to feel you shouldn’t get along. But the village is so tiny that you have to work it out its not Brooklyn you can’t run away you can’t go and hide in your own scene your scene is the entire world so you better make it work. So it was kind of like the chitokwa series if anyone is familiar with that just like what have you got come and bring it and we will talk about it and we will try and improve in a maybe all bums are hippies but not all hippies are bums but not all bums are hippies is what I would say.

Female speaker: [0:58:06] [inaudible]

Female speaker: Yeah.

Female speaker: [0:58:06] [inaudible] on record.

Female speaker: Agro circus kids agro circus punk kids yeah them too.

Female speaker: [0:58:15] [inaudible]

Female speaker: I don’t know.

[0:58:20] [background voices]

Female speaker: Surprised why are you surprised if there isn’t nostalgic element to this? I mean the nostalgia of this small town spirit. No not at all I mean I was raised in tiny town.

Male speaker: No my question was I mean I wasn’t raised in small town and I don’t have any nostalgia for at anything really and I have a bit of problem with the notion of nostalgia I mean it’s interesting to me and still don’t have it you know you can ground values in the good things from the past but in fact it seems like it seems like it seemed bizarre when you cobble together a boat out of junk that you would have nostalgia for the past I don’t know how you square that.

Female speaker: Oh no I never meant nostalgia for any past I meant more nostalgia for our past.

Male speaker: Nostalgia is not really forward looking kind of by definition you know what I mean?

[1:00:00]

Female speaker: I don’t know if I completely agree with this because I don’t know I have had three years of living in a city that’s completely exist in the past or think about this pretty hard and I don’t think of nostalgia as like a stagnant system of emotions that is just based on the thought that what happened isn’t going to happen again, I don’t know maybe I get a little streak of sentimentalism I’m okay with that actually. I think that nostalgia is an awfully good driving force for me personally to do things that I did ones not so hot and enjoyed all the same to try and play that same goosh doll better again later, I just meant nostalgia for I don’t know a lot of a lot of a lot of I don’t know maybe this is a scene specific thing. but a lot of people that I know my age I’m 27 really at this point in their lives are dropping out of their like crazy punk rock lifestyles men and they are getting a firm. So if that’s not nostalgia driven in some sense I don’t know what is.

Male speaker: [1:01:28] inaudible] yeah it’s an interesting because there is definitely a stigma attached to nostalgia maybe for good reason. but also a lot of people that we’ve been involved with have an interesting some fidelity with some moment from the past or certain or even certain elements from different contexts that have happened before that could be useful in another context.

Female speaker: Yeah maybe along those lines or maybe I can say this better by saying that there is some form of nostalgia in the original sort of mental makeup of people of these two years on this river being like - this river used to be a mass transit centre there used to be all kinds of crazy things living on this river I mean it was a completely a live highway just full of all kinds of like snake oil quakes and gypsies and giant talkers and boats and everything I mean. Yeah the city centers are along the river it used to it just to be a completely alive thing and there is life in that thing yet but it’s pretty empty all the same.

[1:02:42] [background voice]

Female speaker: Do I have a fin you know we were just planting [1:02:45] [indiscernible]

Male speaker: [1:02:50] [inaudible] what?

Female speaker: [1:02:51] inaudible] yeah.

Male speaker: [1:02:54] [inaudible] meant, who knows. Yeah okay so I wanted to know about not just the your particular [1:03:11] [indiscernible] but like I saw some of the photos that things happened on the shore right? In the context of the boat not just in the other projects. and so I was curious about this that you are kind of you know going from place  to place and in sort of in away picking up what someone else is throwing down but also other people are picking up what you’re throwing down you are kind of spreading something around. But you know I mean probably different stuff thinking you know like I was curious about what these things what those times were like you know when you it’s like you know literary you know pulling in the port or whatever even if it’s just a beach docking and what not, I’m just curious you know that factored into your you know what you guys had planned on and how that side of thing has turned out and if there was part of the project in all that.

Female speaker: I think that was like a fundamental element of the project that nothing was planned on ever. So there was like a limited if none if no scouting that was getting done whatsoever it was like you literary – like we had some maps you know we had maps and we were in contact with the coast guard and we had our life vests and what not. but mostly we had no idea like how far our engines had bust out that day or if we would be able to like work with the currents and get five miles or get 30 miles or what you know the weather was going to be like that bad in terms of rain we would just like stay camped out. We would pull over on the side of the road and stay in an island for a couple of days at a time or you know get beach and not be able to pull out because of the way that the tides are working even though we had our charts. So there were these things that were unpredictable and that is what we were really living for at that point in time you know we were there for it, we were ready for it, we were calling out for that unpredictability and accepting it with full force.

[1:05:03]

And we pulled in towns and we had no idea what to expect and that was a huge part of it that was kind on the point just not to know what you were getting yourself into and dealing with whatever came as it did. God and what else I mean you know sometimes we had a great time at the town sometimes they would run us out and be like, “you crazy bastards get out of our town, what you think you are doing here?” And most of the times there was a lot of, “well where are you coming from, where are you going, what’s going on, who are you?” People would roll up on the side of their boats and throw beers at us and you know get funny - it was like you know people would be so welcoming often because they had never seen anything like this before in their lives and they would just showed boxes of socks and boxes of raingear and boxes of food and local produce and I don’t know there would also wild stuff like all slams of venecine or like a locally cut fish or…

Female speaker: Dunk and doughnuts?

Female speaker: Yeah dunk and doughnuts like randomly like someone brought us in the first year someone like brought like a huge tray of these gigantic MacDonald’s milkshakes and like we are all vegan like you know like vegan, arecas you know we don’t want to have anything to do with MacDonald’s but we are all just like wow this wow it’s so hot out you know. So some people like some people drink some people are just like couldn’t have anything of it. But whatever it was you take what you get as you get. So that was kind of our MO for rolling down the river at least.

Male speaker: So…

Female speaker: Do you want to go?

Male speaker: Yeah [1:06:48] [inaudible]

Female speaker: Justin what did you feel like asking?

Male speaker: Oh hello do you hear me?

Female speaker: Oh yes.

Male speaker: Can you hear me now?

Female speaker: Yes we can hear you great.

Male speaker: Okay cool I’m sorry if my question has been already addressed because tuned in kind of late I’m not sure. But actually I have kind of two very practical questions that pertains to sailing down river that I wanted to ask you about. The first is kind of like local or legal. like I can’t be sure I really don’t know but I get the feeling and this might just be like the kind of like a certain kind of like go mentality that kind of comes some kind of silly super ego that I have for something because I’m not all sure about this but I’m feeling if I were to build a raft and throw it into like let’s say the Delaware  river in Philadelphia, someone would be there to like kick me out or to tell me that that’s not allowed and I would be arrested for something, because that’s not completely not the case like you can just thrown down in a river at any time and just [1:07:54] [cross talk]

Female speaker: There is a couple of little tiny  things that you have to do other than that that can stop you because Mississippi river at least is a federal water way and cops have no jurisdiction and coast guard is very busy but the. But the down river, I’m not sure about. Basically you have to have a certain amount of things on your boat you have to register it and you have to follow a couple of easy rules and that’s pretty much it. for example you have to have as many life jackets as there are people plus a couple of extras, you have to have running lights some in the front and some in the back that right that show which direction you are heading, you have to have a horn and you have to have a what do you call fire extinguishers and you have a whistle and flares sorry signal flares and you have to have an anchor. And if you have those things on your boat I mean one of the coast guards guys said I wouldn’t be caught on it but have a great time I think have a lot of fun, so yeah there is that.

Male speaker: Cool, Those are very good answers thank you.

Female speaker: And we were also fully we were fully registered you just, just like registering your car you go you pay a fee you get a number like a license plate number you pin on the side of your boat and you are good to go during the day. We have lots of friends or at least I do that don’t care to play these rules. so they navigate at night and they go through the sleaze which are like the side the side sort of swampy parts of the river off of the main shipping channel and they sort of totally under the radar really cover it. You can do it either way but it’s a lot faster if you can move it during the day.

Female speaker: In New York.

Male speaker: Okay interesting though.

Female speaker: But somebody here somebody who was this is Robin she was she did the same project but on the Hudson river which is I think a lot more maybe as close to or similar to the Delaware river.

Robin: I was just going to say I’m not sure how many of the laws vary State to State but I know when we are registering boats in New York if it’s under 16 feet and does not have a motor you don’t have to register it.

[1:10:04]

Female speaker: [1:10:05] [indiscernible]

Robin: So if it’s like a canoe or even a boat under 16 feet without a motor like you can stick in the water I think as long as it’s not at night the running light it sure comes up there and you have life jackets you are legal.

Male speaker: Cool, if I could quickly ask just another question that’s kind of related in the sense that they both relate to kind of like practical fears that I’m curious about and again I don’t know if this is realistic at all or if again this is kind of just a fantastic kind of political you know like effectively conservative fears that prevent people from doing cool things like these. but my other impression is that going down a river like the Mississippi or the Delaware especially for long stretches of it one will be bound to encounter let’s say like very like fatal rackets or some kinds of like waterfalls or things of these nature that would really kind of spell a disaster are they out there, are there not really not many these kinds of situations or are they manageable if you wanted to say a few words about that?

Female speaker: Okay well.

[1:11:19] [background voices]

Female speaker: For that as well. The most of the major rivers in the United States at least the Ohio, the Mississippi, the Missouri, the Delaware, I am imagining the Hudson all these rivers have been shipping channels for 200 plus years. And at this point the Mississippi specifically has been pretty well divided into manageable segments by the army court of engineers; there is all these locks and dams. and all you basically if you are like a river or raft it, all you need to do is you can find a chart and then you can look at it and if there is a waterfall you have to walk around which is the case in the upper Missouri there is all these crazy waterfalls but you can footage them supposing you had a little boat and then when you get to a certain point where it’s been a shipping channel its navigable.

Shipping channel means that you are guaranteed of enough clearance for a large enough boat to be shipping a lot of stuff to go through like a badge a giant badge. Actually badges are much huger practical fear in reality of being in the river than any waterfall I have ever seen. Badges are gigantic they are trains they take forever to stop or turn and they usually don’t see you and they don’t care and actually our friend Maddy Ovalis was on the Mississippi river the year before us I don’t know if you were here while Ariel was talking about running into this fellow he built his own boat and he going down the river. He had a run in with a badge and some tag boats they didn’t even touch him. Their backwash from the motors it was so powerful that it instantaneously sank his boat and he is lucky to be alive. Everything that he owned was inside this thing so yeah there is some really scary things on the river you have to play the game right but you can win.

Male speaker: Okay cool good answers I mean I just wanted to relate to it and this is kind of [1:13:10] [indiscernible] comments and I will give her the mic at that point. it’s just that I mean the reason I referenced both of these question with you know the statements that I did, saying that is that I’m not sure if they were realistically or real or this is just my imagination. I mean those that itself I think is an interesting and indicative about how it’s actually more practically and actually possible to just throw for a boat in a river and go down it. It seems like from your answers it’s really quite possible it’s not very far flung. but you know I mean I’m not pretty well educated you know  urbanite in Philadelphia and I still had it in my imagination for some reason out like you know the river for these reasons its off limits right? It’s like imaginary fears or issues that would prevent me from kind of making the river in a certain way my own and using it to my you know for my own purposes. and so I think it’s really interesting just to use my, me as an example  about how you now these things are more realistic than they might seem even to you know political savvy and fairly educated people. So it’s very interesting thank you.

Female speaker: Well yeah we were just looking now at something that Scott pulled up which was a terrible collision of a dock boat and a badge a baggage badge on the Delaware. yeah its I mean nothing is safe we were very I mean I’m not so old now but I was much younger then and I believed and I still believe to some extend that I’m bullet proof but I’m much more open  now to the possibility that there might be a situation where that is not the case. I mean the natural world is terrifying and amazing and it’s great to subjugate yourself to it because life is gigantic when you are very small.

[1:15:10]

Female speaker: I can attest to an experience that we did have on the Mississippi river on the first year where we came across a five mile stretch that was wide five miles wide off the Mississippi river. And the current was quite remarkable it really felt like you were out at sea in terms of the types of waves that you are getting out on the water at that point. And time and we that was the year that we had a series of floating sort of platoon based rafts where there were platoons and Styrofoam, nautical Styrofoam that were floating the boats and they were all tied together. So it was this long raft system.

And we had on the second floor kind of built through a stage on the piece in the middle and the boat was bucking and pieces were flying everywhere. We had a friend that actually I think he was trying to pull up one of our tires that was working as a bumper between some of the through the rafts and he broke his finger. and then there was a raft that was we were pulling in our tow that had all our bikes on it that we had - actually one of our friends Marshall was standing on at that point in time and it was connected to the last raft by some polls that were then bolted with some very very heavy lag bolts down into the raft, and they wrecked out because of the bucking that was happening with the rafts. We only just barely able to get him back onto the main part of the raft and we lost that raft floor like four days time or something. it’s just like it floated back off through that five mile stretch and like landed safely actually in the end into a swampy area and nuzzled itself there for us to find about a week later with a very shallow speed boat.

But we thought we were going to die and it was frightening and we were making SOS calls to the coast guards every badge, anybody that would listen it was frightening in were all standing there in our life jackets and parts and pieces of the boat were breaking off left and right it was a terrifying terrifying terrifying terrifying day. There was actually this girl Amber who was we had taken on under wing she was like 17 years old. I think she was betrothed to this guy that she wasn’t in love with or she was about to get she was about getting married to this guy. her mum was super cool but somehow she got stuck in the small town and her mum was like take my daughter with you like let her have a life please take her out of this small town. and she was there with us, she had only been with us like a week maybe she was very shy and she was just like she just stood in the kitchen in the middle of the raft and all these chaos happening left and right and was like we are going to die! We are going to die! SOS! SOS! And Amber is just like crying in the kitchen bowling like what have I gotten myself into these people are crazy.

And we were I men it was genuinely frightening. And we actually managed to get through that stretch of river and got to the next lock and dam and pass the lock and dam were you know we were shaking in our boots and then afterwards the life guards or the coast guards came like these hooks and nets attached to the end of them because they weren’t prepared to come out and help us while we were on the water having troubles on this very dangerous situation. they came to fish dead bodies out with these like long poles and hooks and nets to fish dead bodies out of the water and they are you guys are okay that’s fine whatever.

So I’m just saying don’t always trust in the abilities of these so called powers that the please do your research, use your ingenuity and your street smarts, make things as structured sound as you possibly can do your research and definitely get registered radios are great totally use radios and love your life vest. But yeah I mean what we did is no joke we’ve come across several life threatening instances and yeah we had a lot of fun doing a lot of dangerous things but it’s not always as easy as you might initially think it to be and its one of those moments when ignorance is a bit of bliss I guess you could say.

Female speaker: I will turn us onto something, to Fiona, so…

[1:19:50] [background voices]

Male speaker: Oh yeah.

Female speaker: What is that?

Female speaker: We are looking at a picture of the dimaxian car I’m going to pass it over to Scott now.

[1:20:02]

Male speaker: Yeah just want to pull this up because we are somehow the discussion about Jonathan - well this little thread talked about what was it? That these boats ultimately are a lot like - Jonathan just he just sort of gave another example like they are kind of like people they are trying in the US to get bigger and bigger cars to be safer and safer just slightly ridiculous that’s…I think this conversation just kind of came up because you know you guys have experienced some difficulties on the water you know and then again - yeah I mean other kinds of boats have difficulties too. And it kind of doesn’t matter at what level of velvet rope that we sort of place around ourselves. I definitely wouldn’t want to encourage people not to be experimental of the fear of the unknown because you know we “safe as humanly possible” and then just wind up dead.

So there is definitely a good reason to explore these other ways of living and working together in life. At least that’s the moral of the story for me. but anyway so I just pulling up this dimaxian car because well we were looking at N55s floating platform real quick because I’m like well  I would like this car you know as opposed to a small car or this boat. But - and they were kind of dimaxian inspired and Bucky Filler made this car in 1939. And this is actually his first giant failure really because this was like the car of the future and what ended up happening was he was driving some investors around who were ready to bankroll this thing and the car crushed and they died. Hello! You know so this was his first giant you know failure but I mean it’s an incredibly cool amazing car from the ‘30s you know so. Yeah I mean its super crazy awesome if anybody feels like browsing some you know I will have to add [1:22:10] [indiscernible] back to the call so I bet you know it feels like browsing some images there, there  they are and that’s the end of my part of this story [1:22:15] [indiscernible] take it over.

Female speaker: Wow! What we were talking about? Oh we were talking about dangers of the waters but I don’t know there was not actually a question.

Female speaker: Dangerous major. Does someone else have something that they want to talk about?

Female speaker: Anyone here, do you guys have a question?

[1:22:44] [background voices]

Male speaker: Oh okay.

Female speaker: That’s [1:23:21] [indiscernible]

Male speaker: I guess yeah they make arrangements for that but yeah so I was - okay I was curious about your other projects and I wouldn’t want to move on too quickly because this one is like very interesting. Oh wait no I’m sorry before we do that I have one question that we asked at our we actually asked you guys a question in our description that Steven mainly to be quite honest wrote on based on texts from your websites. Yeah can we borrow your description for Plausible Art Worlds; it just happens to be a really fantastic quote that applies to other things besides boats. And it is just for people that aren’t reading here I will just paste it but…We want to be a living kicking model of an entirely different art world one that in this case happens to float and yeah as Steven pointed out it just sums up a lot for us. So I don’t know what kind of a question that is actually.

Female speaker: Yeah [1:24:32] [indiscernible]

Male speaker: Okay yeah sure oh awesome okay alright next question. I was curious about your other projects and if anybody has questions about like the boat side of the Armada I mean don’t feel shy. But I just maybe we have like maybe less than 20 minutes before we rap up I know you guys do other stuff I know you are here in Philly to do a project now. Yeah you are doing something with middle arts and I definitely don’t want to divulge anything but I mean you are or are not doing something with the boat too? But anyway I’m curious about the other stuff you are doing so.

Female speaker: Do you want me to like very briefly synopsize at this point or do you want me to say something about Philly, Mural Arts? Interesting things okay.

Female Speaker: [1:25:30] [inaudible]

Female Speaker: Basically everything that has come of this that we have done as collective projects that we didn’t conceive of ourselves say like a boat on a river going down [1:25:40] [indiscernible] has come because somebody instigated something or somebody in one occasion it was these people at Mass MOCA, the Museum of contemporary arts in Massachusetts in North Adams were like oh my God you build all these stuff out of crap, well we have all these crap you should come over. So there is that one and then that happened again where this woman from this sort of difficult to define sort of contemporary art center-ish, sort of a gallery, sort of a museum not really either one, governmentally funded in Holland.

She was curating or being part of this giant project that happened during the election when Obama was elected that had to do with the heartland, heartland  USA like what is it mean to be from the heart of it all. So they had all these people from the Mississippi Valley of the United States, all these crazy different people doing all these different things at the Vanader Museum [phonetic] [0:01:33.1] is what their official museum is called. And then they were like and then there is these funny people  like we should have them over too, so they had us over and they didn’t have any junk at all home’s really clean so we had to like really do some work to scour up some crap to build out of.

But these are two things that happened because in the case of Holland she was literally in a car driving around the Midwest and then on her way back she went through the museum in North Adams and Mass MOCA was oh this is exactly—like look at these nice stuff, completely serendipitous, completely unprofessional.

Female speaker: [1:27:31] [indiscernible]

Female speaker:  No I didn’t really think about that but then here we are in Philadelphia doing this totally different thing. Its just three of us and some of our friends are going to come later, me Ariel and Robin and we are working with Mural Arts and to tell the truth is still don’t know why they asked us to do this or why they trusted us to do this. But they have given us like two big gangs of kids and, yes and we are hanging out with these two gangs of kids and we are totally shooting from the hip and being off the cuff and totally informal and making some people at Mural Arts probably pretty uncomfortable and hopefully making some really cool mural with this kids. So no we have to figure out which wall it is yeah. but we thought we would try and use some of the  sort of like super organic decision  making unilateral styles of doing stuff with some kids to see whether they think its cool or not.  

And in terms of building boats here in Philadelphia [1:28:50] [indiscernible], I’m not going to say too much about it but the Armada has also won a grant from the Philadelphia Art Alliances to come and do a project here in Philadelphia in the fall of 2011. And I think some of that will include building some boats that will navigate the waters and some other projects throughout the city mostly building projects and things. We will be a much larger endeavor. I mean right now we are just a very small group we’ve got some funding, we got a grant from the Mural Arts program and Scott wrote us a message saying he could get more beer which sounds lovely I guess on these hot steamy days but—and we will cut it later too I hope.

But yeah and so that’s what we are doing right now, is the loose collectives that we are and there are various characters all over the States right now that have a lot of smaller projects, independent projects that are happening or becoming more professional inspired artists or farmers or mechanists or underwater deep sea, welders, divers or puppeteers or performance artists or record label musicians, and founders of record labels and I mean movies makers. Its really, it’s an interesting crew and so and we are looking forward to seeing what’s going to happen in the near future.

[1:30:30]

Female Speaker: Next question please, oh its like we are sweating, drinking frothy beer and dancing with the stars, oh there is a few more emoticons happening here. Oh mooning what’s the shabby short cake character she is doing? That looks like York and they are in her swan dress that she had.

Female speaker: You should discuss the [1:31:09] [indiscernible].

Female speaker: Oh was anyone involved in the Flood Time film? Yes definitely. Is it a documentary? No not quite missed the screening last week. Yes Flood time is a fascinating project that was a project that was designed by a man named Todd Chandler who was also a part of a band called Dark, Dark, Dark which was a product of some of the Rockaway experiences. Todd Chandler was also on the Boats and so where many of the characters of, I think all of the characters of the Miss Rock - of Dark, Dark, Dark, wonderful band based out of Minneapolis. He created a script and filmed a lot of—I’m sorry I’m distracted by a lot of what’s going on [1:32:04] [inaudible] I will just talk.

He developed the scripts that would happen it was a fantasy, it’s a narrative that will coincide with the floating of the Switchback Seas projects which was a series of rafts that were designed by the artist Swoon, it was connected to the Diche Projects galleries in New York City. We started up in Troy New York and floated down the Hudson River and finished docking at Diche Projects gallery in Long Island City. And it was a project that happened over a series of months and Todd Chandler filmed this footage coinciding with that Switchback project.

So there a number of characters that were part of the Switchback project that are incorporated into the film. There was a screening that just happened at the rooftop film festivals at Socrates Sculpture Park on July 7th so about a week ago. And it was a lyrical, it was a very beautiful lyrical screening where they had live music accompaniment and with the setting of the river behind it outdoor in the park screening. And it was a cut that was made just for that very particular viewing that was happening with the Rooftop film festival. The final cut of the film is going to come out I think in the fall and they are also going to be doing a screening, they have been invited to the San Jose Biennial. It’s a project that Todd Chandler is doing in conjunction with a man named Jeff Stark who was also a producer of some of these boat ventures.

And they won a grant to be part of the San Jose Biennial and they are creating this whole sort of indoor drive-in cinema situation where they are bringing in I think 25 scrap junk cars and inserting their own home made radio system. So they will be paying live the music that is accompanying the film footage as a huge art installation project for the festival. And then the film is being applied to various film festivals internationally right now and so we will see the final cut coming out in the fall. But it’s a narrative, it’s a fantasy, it’s about a girl falling in love with the river and she had another relationship and a number of buddies and friends that helped her build this raft and she ended up choosing the river over her reality. It’s a beautiful piece, I highly recommend checking it out and following up with it the more you hear about it. What else? What’s next? Have to run but thank you Miss Rockaway Armada that was really fascinating goodnight, see you Greggles.

[1:34:57]

Female speaker: [1:35:01] [Inaudible].

Female speaker: Oh yes here we go Anna’s got a good one.

Female speaker: Nile.

Female speaker: There is this amazing book which I can’t remember the name of sorry which is about this woman who set out to row the entire length of the Nile which she did. And it’s a story about a river that is so unpredictable and crazy and interesting that looks, I don’t know, makes the Mississippi look kind of tame actually. Because the Mississippi is wild but at least it doesn’t you know just like spontaneously disappear once in a blue moon which is apparently what the Nile does. I’m totally game let’s do it.

Female speaker:  I mean there are actually a series of rafters that go out the—they call them river rats actually, number of people who build their own homemade rafts and raft down the Mississippi every single year. We happened to be one project that happened down the Mississippi river. But there are kids that go down every single summer and they are growing and growing and growing. And tones of retirees on the sun as well. You know it’s not something you think about so much. I live in New York City and it’s not a City that’s based around the water. We see the water when you bike over the bridge but it’s not something that you have as much access to and it’s easy to forget how important our environments can be and what kind of an impact they can have on you. And it was, I have to say it has been a privilege to be able to spend this much time living so close to the actual materiality of your environments at least you know, feeling the outside weather inside, as you could say, down the Nile [1:36:55] [inaudible].

Female speaker: Yes that’s the one that I was just trying to…

Female speaker: Yes that’s totally the book Jonathan, that’s the one. Have you ever—maybe since you know what it was you have already read it but totally great, its great. No the Armada? Only armed with bullets of love for you know stuff like this. No how did we choose the name? I think there was a lottery, I think a bunch of people chose names and then we voted and some of the names were better or worse than others. There was one that I really liked after the fact it was called ten thousand fingers in the soup, that’s a pretty good name.

Female speaker: I think there was a reference to the [1:37:36] [indiscernible] Rockaway’s and it was based on a play that Finley wrote the first year that was not kind of direct like the sad directly and side show character Miss Rockaway and that [1:37:52] [inaudible] part of the family of a circus side show yeah and that’s probably where the name came out of, alight.

Female speaker: I unfortunately can’t remember the name of any of these artists now so I’m just going to talk about them as artists. I know there is currently a lot of people that are doing kind of like the similar thing but they are doing a lot more in the design aspect I guess where they plan the whole thing out before hand, the whole boat, the whole structure. And its more about like creating your own personal island, maybe not like movable, I’m sure—I mean I know there is a lot of artists that are doing it now and I’m not sure but, and I guess they are more about like—well not they but some of them are specifically about like growing, doing everything that you can live on and never have to leave.

Female speaker: You mean like [1:38:54] [inaudible].

Female speaker: It’s like self sustaining.

Female speaker: No bio-dome.

Female speaker: Oh kind of like the bio-dome but I guess on water and then there would be like things growing all through out and stuff like that.

[1:39:08] [background voices]

Female speaker: That sounds familiar, that might be—

Female speakers: [1:39:12] [indiscernible] the water pod is it?

Female speaker: Yeah there was a water pod project that happened on the river, on the Hudson, was going around to the five burrows in New York City, it was meant to be somewhat of a sustainable art living project and artist residency that was happening. It was on a barge, it wasn’t like its own independent moving boat or Island, it was a barge that was getting tug boated around to the different, five different burrows. And they were hosting workshops and events  where they—they had chickens they had a garden and they had this sort of geodesic dome type structure and they were trying  to  host artist residencies and shows and had a lot of parties and discussions.

But it was something that was heavily sponsored and was very successful and they had a lot of architects and designers and people that were involved in making that project happen and yeah it was called the water pod project. I actually  haven’t met too many of those characters but it was a project that was happening with some like minded artists and craftsman that was happening a very similar time to some of the projects that we were doing. It’s another example of the fact that you now there are a lot of people doing similar things out in the world in their own varieties, in their ways and we happen to be one of them that also came with the sort of punk rock circus.

[1:40:45]

Female speaker: [1:40:45] [inaudible].

Female speaker: Oh I don’t remember, I don’t know.

Male speaker: I have a quick comment, I’m Ed.

Female speaker: Yes please go ahead.

Male speaker: Its very interesting to talk about all these other related projects, these related attempts to kind of reclaim water as a kind of –as a space for new possibilities ad new kinds of lifestyles. Because I mean it really makes ,me wonder if water waves or just the water is kind of like, you know, really emerging as a new kind of battle ground, a new kind of cultural, political background in which you know maybe very significant battles are being played out. Because I wanted to bring something up, I’m not sure if you guys are familiar, if anyone is familiar with this but there are actually other projects not quite as cool as the ones that you guys are talking about to reclaim the water for like, you guys were talking about nostalgia before, for these like really kind of like nostalgic, like basically like radical returns to capitalism. Like are you familiar with these at all?

They are like big buildings like floating communities, they are not rafts, they don’t move they are docks. But the idea is build these communities outside of the jurisdiction, outside of like traditional territorial jurisdictions. Not to like reinvent some kind of like radically new kind of art world or something, something like that but rather to build like even more free markets. And it’s this, all of this--it’s surrounded by all of this really profound kind of political ideology but it’s almost exactly the opposite of the kinds of ideas and ideals and values that you guys are talking about. So its really interesting how water ways are becoming this area in which  very kinds of, you know very conflicting visions of what the future should hold are kind of being battled out. I don’t know if you are familiar with that or if you have thoughts on maybe the kind of the more general future significance of the water as a political space.

Female speaker: Well you sound like you are probably a little more up to sniff on that particular thing than I personally am, this is Anna. But I am totally with you in the sort of inexplicable gift out sense that the water is kind of like one of the last frontiers in some aspect be it fresh water as a capitalist resource, the control system, be it salt water as actual physical space that can be controlled and used and like casinos expending outwards avoiding loss, you know, tankers flipping a switch and burning crude oil as soon as they are a certain a mount of miles off shore. Like yes I feel you.

Male speaker: Cool now just its very interesting yes.

Female speaker: I mean I don’t necessarily think its anything new though, it’s like property, wars over property and space and land. And I think yes sure there is an exponential curve to everything but it’s like the same ways that those wonderful, hacker, pirate, you know, radio piracy or media piracy groups are able to live on--. Yes sea lands able to exist and those wonderful borders are able to exits with the pirate radio stations off the coast  of England and then you know there is certain things that are able to exist is you make them possible right?

Female speaker: Or the –just like in the [1:44:27] [inaudible] islands.

Female speaker: But I think from our—yeah. Or what did I just say? The recycles crap community is floating islands in various parts of South America, water is still free, land is not free anymore water is free. And so anything goes, it can be bad and it can be good.

Female speaker: But I men Amy just going to reiterate one more time and its one of these situations where its, you know if it doesn’t exist or you want to see more  of it like we were taking matters in our own hand and making life the way that we wanted to see it. And that was what we were offering and putting out into the world and encourage everyone to live in that manner too. It’s like if you want to see something happening, you want to see more of something existing in your world make it happen because you can.

Male speaker: Yes totally.

Female speaker: Right on, what else? More questions bring it on yes.

Male speaker: Actually sadly I was sort of hyper focusing unnecessarily its 8:02 and we are two minutes past so even if people have burning questions too bad sorry and we have to close this because people are in different time zones and like its 2 am there. For the few of you who are in that situation like Jonathan in South Africa, Stephen in Paris and I think everybody else is in the US except I’m not sure where Chris is. In any case thanks everybody for coming it was awesome to chat with you guys, it definitely won’t be the last time, does anyone have any closing music that they’d like to put on? Yes.

Male speaker: Thank you folks.

Female speaker: What about Dark, Dark, Dark?

Male speaker: Yes what about Dark, Dark, Dark? Problem is I can’t get to it quickly enough, oh well. I don’t have any of that, yes anyone feel free to turn your mic on and throw us some closing, music on. We probably have some competing by the time that happens. This is the learning site and in –yes. [1:47:12] [inaudible] I can’t believe it’s so tough to get music, yes totally do it, online?

Female speaker: Is this really geeky? I can use this internet? It’s already on the internet?

Male speaker: Yes.

Male speaker: How do I do that I’m sorry?

Male speaker: You are already up there your [1:48:14] [indiscernible].

Female speaker: Oh I’m so computer illiterate it’s not even funny.

[1:48:18 -1:51:08]

Male speaker: Yes so if you guys ever want to get on IRC with us, I’m actually on this all day long everyday and some of a few of these other people. Botcamp is our pet robot, you will see the rules of this chat room is that this is the main chat for Base Camp, yes filthy drunks are definitely allowed, consider saying hi to Botcamp you will be happy you did. So you can give Botcamp a box snack and we are Dark, Dark, Dark because that’s what I signed in as, you can sign in as anyone you want, say bot love. Oh yes bot love, how about – do we know anything about Miss Rockaway? The camp doesn’t know anything about Miss Rockaway. Let me say this –oops, yes definitely [1:52:35] [inaudible], I’m trying to train her right now; anyway you can have fun with this okay.

So then you can say Rockaway, awesome, but you an also say hello Jonathan? See how free note is a really interesting project, its one of the past events in the plausible art world series. Its one of the groups of people that is a really incredibly  large group, at any given time it picks at about 60, 000 users and they don’t identify themselves as an art project in anyway. But many of them are artists and its mostly independent servers throughout the UK but it’s not a parallel internet but it’s completely independent channel for communication which I like because like Facebook. Yes it’s like they are basically just harvesting our information, our data, it’s like trying to figure out ways to sell the shit better you know. The great thing about something like [1:54:07] [inaudible] or any IRC channel that it’s completely out of principle except for the people that are in there.

So I mean that’s why it’s the hackers chat, you know communication channel of choice then you will really like it further for that reason. It’s nice, it’s more internet bills, you know who is in there. Some of them might be robots and some of them might lo going it except there is a channel of tones of people you don’t really know but if you do know who is there [1:54:32] [inaudible].

Female speaker: How do you know [1:54:37] [inaudible]

Male speaker:  You don’t really-- I mean how do you ever know you know what I mean?

Female speaker: If you talked face to face I’d like to help but if you have enough beers you might not notice he is a robot.

Male speaker: Okay that’s where you have to go, actually if anybody is interested there is a local meeting tonight with a group called stake S-T-A-K-E which is a Philadelphia version of feast.

Female speaker: Oh yes.

Male speaker: And its definitely growing like quite a bit of momentum, we had a couple of meetings her and then its really completely grown in [1:55:43] [inaudible] and there is like just of a ton of volunteers and people that are like really interested in the cooking side and some people are really interested in [1:55:51] [inaudible] side, people are really interested in micro fundraising side or maybe a little bit.

[1:56:01] [background voices]

Male speaker: Yes I don’t like to go I’m not [1:56:02] [indiscernible] to that except for the ones here which is lame. So you are heading over there now? I’m actually going to be heading pout of town soon otherwise I would totally go but I encourage everybody here who even slightly existed to like go check it out.

Female speaker: Well whatever you do—

Male speaker: Isn’t that Teresa’s house? Okay

Female speaker: [1:56:31] [inaudible]

Male speaker: I just want to write it down real quick, like this?

[1:58:20 – 2:07:53] Background voices

Week 3: House Magic: The European squatted social centers movement

[0:00:00]

Scott: Great, so we want to make sure if we – looks like we don’t have Adam Trivage [0:00:09] [phonetic] we are going to go ahead and add some other people on the conference call so just bear with us for a second.

Male Speaker: Alan is low.

Scott: Okay cool. Steven can you hear us okay? By the way…

Steven: Yeah I hear you [0:00:37] [inaudible]

Scott: That’s totally awesome.

Alan: Alan is here.

Scott: So we got Jess, we started the call just and we are on the 6:30 mark. So we are doing better. So great so everybody that was able to make it on the Skype chat, will probably be funneling more people on as we go but welcome everybody. Just want to welcome Alan Moore, can you all hear us okay?

Female Speaker: Yep.

Scott: All right, cool. Great so Alan and all the other people that are joining us here in person, its – anyway thanks for coming, its great to have you.

Alan: Good to be here, I hope I can be heard.

Scott: Yeah, if you can’t be heard – actually did you guys hear that?

Female Speaker: Yeah.

Alan: Okay good.

Scott: From Alan? I didn’t know if you – sorry did you hear what Alan said or just did you hear what I said?

Female Speaker: No I heard everyone.

Scott: Perfect, okay great.

Male Speaker: [0:01:50] [inaudible]

Scott: Okay well just let us know if you can’t hear somebody and we will like rearrange to mic to speak up.

Male Speaker: There is a mic over there.

Scott: Yeah this is the mic and its pretty ready also so should be okay. Great so basically we have invited Alan here to talk tonight as an example, as a representative of this example of Plausible Artworlds, what we are calling a plausible artworld this week. We are looking at a pretty fast movement, the European Squad of Social Center Movement and I think it probably has, Alan will be talking a lot about bleed over into the US as well. But basically we are going to be talking about this in the context of Plausible Artworlds just for a few of you who might be here at the beginning.

In short this project is focusing every week for a year on different examples of other kinds of art worlds than the ones, than the most dominant ones currently on offer. And we invite representatives from those art worlds to talk with us each week about them and invite anybody who is interested to join in on that. The goal is to put together some kind of compendium at the end of the year in the form of a publication that could be [0:03:07] [indiscernible] tool, the arts schools for example when people learn about what artists and also just for those of us who are interested in will be thrilled to have such a thing around.

Great, yeah so we also it’s nice that we also have a mini the vigil and the media and the information exhibit called House Magic that Alan – it’s kind of an accumulation network, some accumulation of a lot of work that Alan has put in and other people have put into researching, it’s quite in social centers and related information. So we’ve got a lot of that here as well that we may be able to channel some of that into Skype chat. So anyway I guess at this point I want to basically ask…

Male Speaker: Sorry I…

Scott: Quite all right

Male Speaker: [0:03:59] [indiscernible]

Scott: It’s good we need more photos, Alan is taking photographs here. Wanted to ask Alan to kind of if you don’t mind briefly describe how Magic influence and I think through that context that leads us into the other things that you want to talk about and I guess you have kind of a presentation that you can go on for a little bit then we can do a sort of Q&A afterwards.

Alan: Oh okay.

Scott: Or we can do a discussion throughout, we haven’t actually settled that yet. It’s probably good for people to know whether or not they could chime in or [0:04:40] [cross talk]

Alan: Well I considered this process is a little conky in terms of discourse but if people have questions at any moment, please you know it could be here physically or it could be virtually, please ask them. Essentially House Magic, the bureau foreign correspondence is a propaganda initiative to organize and present information about the movement of [0:05:09] [indiscernible] and social center or occupies social centers OSCs or Central [0:05:16] [indiscernible] SEOs and I basically started in Europe to look at these kind of places but it’s a global movement and its also present in the US but in kind of a disarticulated form, there is a lot of social center squad in the US but their components of the forms of this [0:05:47] [indiscernible] social centers such as info shops critical mass [0:05:52] [indiscernible] all this kind of viral archaisms that reproduce around the country in different cities are present in the squad of social centers in Europe.

[0:06:05]

So I brought the House of Magic correspondence exhibition, it’s really not a very good exhibition; it is a process more than it is a display that makes things clear. So behind we have on this wall social center wall paper which is basically hand outs and information that you would find in the social centers that’s been photocopied and pasted onto big sheets of paper, it’s a funky little collage and then above the card and logos are different, some of the different social centers [0:06:48] [indiscernible] in Madrid was just evicted three weeks ago, rolled to Florida in Hamburg Germany that little, that light thing there and New York  Battani which is in Berlin is the flying building with the flag and the rope, social center Lupiata [0:07:13] [phonetic] Slovenia, those are the logos that we when the exhibition originated that [0:07:20] [indiscernible] real which is a cultural center and Lorrie cited Manhattan, we kept these stencils for the design of the exhibition, they put them all over the walls.

And then below the stencil logo in the social center wall paper are clip boards and the clip boards are sort of dossiers of individual social centers and - a voice from the depths?

Scott: I think guys can mute your audio until you would like to flag us down, that would be awesome.

Alan: Was there a question or…?

Scott: It didn’t sound like it, yeah if you do have a question though feel free to chime in or send us a text.

Alan: These clip boards contained dossiers I thought I had brought them from New York but it turned out that I hadn’t. So in the last couple of days, I have been sitting here making them over again. And they are essentially; most of the information about the social centers is present on the web. I visited a number of them, I haven’t lived or worked at any of them but they are all present through their websites and their photo streams. So you have basically the website of the social center on the front of the clip board and behind is the history of the social center, how they came to be, some of them no longer exist because they are illegal, disobedient and squatting in contravention of the laws of their particular nations and against the interest of the owners of the building. So as soon as the social center comes into existence, it began to process of legal battle to evict it or negotiation of the city agencies to continue their work, so some of them no longer exist. And they are regularly involved in pretty intense street demonstrations and legal structures and so on.

I brought in addition to assembling these dossiers, I collected media materials, many books each social center, each country and where the social center is placed generates books and experiences and I have brought many DVDs, we have paper sprays on the table here. The one that is playing now is [0:09:50] [inaudible] so they took over a building in the center of Madrid and a lot of these and you will see on videos activities that are taking place have excised class of theatrical presentation, music, dance, they just become kind of centers for cultural activity and they are open to the street, people can come in when the social center is open and it’s not so much, we understand squatting in the United States is like I need a place to live so I am moving into this abandoned building.

[0:10:36]

These are social centers that are doing things that the state is not doing. They also have, this is – oh the woman who is involved in this social center labatorial and she is saying how wonderful it is and how it reminds her you know of her earlier days as an activist but they really are a kind of new and this book fear which is also from the Madrid movement Antinomian [0:11:08] [phonetic] and Metropolis movement, occasion movement of the social centers of the second generation [0:11:14] [indiscernible] Spanish, they understand themselves as squatters who are in a new movement, a new phase of this movement of squatting. So people live in the building but those are the people who are running the social center.

Now in Madrid there, there is a diversity of social centers, many different groups you know they don’t get along; people are running when they will split off squat another building and run their own. And when I was just there I was toured through one that was in a neighborhood called Techwan [0:11:51] [phonetic] which is not a public social center, the guy said. Okay this is a social center that is working in the community, right? And its right across the street from the Mosque in Techwan district and so serving Muslim immigrants who are very poor and many are being deported and they get pushed around and are exploited so they are working with the immigrants trying to try and improve their conditions, teach them Spanish and so forth and help them with their legal problems.

So they are working in the community, they do what the community needs to be done, they are not like labatorial down town open to everybody, having concerts and so forth, good.

Female Speaker: [0:12:37] [inaudible] of what you’ve just mentioned, you hinted at a little bit before and that is just kind of this, the difference between squatting and squatters and social centers because it really if you are talking about a movement, you are trying to understand if the movement is the [0:12:59] [inaudible] sort of like art granular [0:13:03] [inaudible]. I get the base movement of squatters or if the new thing is the social centers [0:13:11] [inaudible] a little bit maybe your kind of explain that definition of squatters and social, squatter social centers, yeah that would really be helpful.

Alan: I mean squatting is ancient. There is a little booklet here, it is a joke but it’s called, Squatters of [0:13:32] [indiscernible] this is Washington Erving middle of the 19th century in the City of Bernada among the ruins of the mortgage temple, there are many people living, they are just living, they are squatting. This is continuous throughout history. George Washington’s first job as an [0:13:48] [inaudible] was to evict squatters on this family’s land, right? So there is that understanding. In the US, squatter nation, right, a Oklahoma land rush, people running up there, as soon as they come out, they stay early land claims. There is this understanding that you go, you take it, you make it, you develop it, you make it your own, you can’t live there. And this is the American understanding of squatting.

And it also is developed in Amsterdam when there was a shortage of housing, many vacant buildings being held off the market because of speculation but people had no place to live. The difference in Europe in general and many other countries in the world, housing is a right of the people. There is a very active social [0:14:43] [indiscernible] in the US the social housing programs have been dismantled over the years and housing is not a right, you do not have a right to housing. You can’t afford you know in the state since it’s not enough to settle you up, you know hit the road, again the street, it’s not a problem.

[0:15:03]

So there is kind of more of a recognition in Europe that people have this right and there is more of a legal process that happens in the course of an eviction says the longer term when people are often resettled from a squat or a shanty town into a social housing. Okay so…

Male Speaker: [0:15:29] [inaudible]

Scott: That’s okay, did you guys have a [0:15:38] [inaudible] Harry did you want to try that?

Alan: I am really kind of taking it very roundabout way of answering this question. I am not answering the question but essentially the difference is the social center movement  understands itself as making room or provision within the city for cultural and political and social work is not being done by private practices or the state. So they are opening up for this kind of thing to happen.

Female Speaker: We are also leaving tonight; also squatters are living and opening their doors to the public.

Alan: Yeah exactly.

Female Speaker: So that’s kind of what I was wondering like the difference between the movement of squatting plus a right to live somewhere versus to like offering something back to the community which is open.

Alan: Yeah they are very different but they are related, I mean they are kind of continuous. But in New York when the buildings were squatted and the [0:16:42] [indiscernible] in the 80s and 90s, they were defended and also in Amsterdam, they would well, bars on the doors and you know defended against the police evictions. So they were very closed places, they are fortified, right? And these social centers are not. They are open and they rely on the supportive community to remain a place although they are also defended.

Male Speaker: Does that support come into play when [0:17:13] [inaudible]

Alan: Oh yes

Male Speaker: [0:17:17] [inaudible]

Alan: Yeah I mean again the difference is between the United States and Europe. In Madrid there are like 50,000 communists and at least socialists, anarchists, socialists everyone’s tribe or another, yeah. And these people come out on the street in hundreds and then thousands finally for the big moments. This is basically also in Italy where there are a lot of communists, they don’t have a presence in the government because they blew it electorally but there are many cadres and they can turn people out in the streets. So the State can’t just say everybody is going out, we are going to send our police, our 500 police because they will be facing 5000 people, it doesn’t work. Yeah, yeah so they will if they know the time of the eviction, they will call people into the streets and you know they will be just impossible for the police to proceed. I mean eventually they do succeed, they block off streets and – I mean that to me is that’s yeah one of the defense is the most spectacular aspect and a lot of these videos have brought like 15 odd videos, many of them have spectacular scenes of defense and eviction and there is tear gas and so forth.

In the movement, this is called the team of foreign. People like to watch demonstrations, final demonstrations on videos. So to me that really is not the most interesting aspect although…

Male Speaker: It adds value.

Alan: Yeah, yeah it’s exciting I guess as long as you are not being hit on the head.

Male Speaker: Well like I guess first they are talking about [0:19:23] [inaudible]

Scott: Oh sorry, would you introduce yourself [0:19:28] [inaudible]

Male Speaker: It seems like [0:19:33] [inaudible] would be okay let’s move on to the next place instead of like totally defending it.

Alan: Yeah.

Male Speaker: [0:19:45] [inaudible]

Alan: Well nobody wants to leave. Once they’ve cleaned the building, you know labatorial trace is labatorial trace because this was the third building they had, this group had taken and they were evicted from that one as well. Rampard in London was evicted a few weeks, couple of months ago and they took another building and now they are heading a place called Liften Hoist and Patio Maravias [0:20:13] [phonetic] was just evicted three weeks ago and have taken another building. So now they are very sophisticated and have a group in Patio, a group that’s investigating the situation of houses and you know if you can find one that’s owned by an absentee corporation or a corporation that is entering bankruptcy or that’s owned by the State or as often happens in England that is owned by what they called a housing council.

[0:20:46]

So a lot of times the housing council will clear a block of flats or building and be preparing to sell it or something and then people will take it, it becomes more difficult for them. My favorite squat is I don’t know the name, I should work out a clip, a dossier on them but they are in Vienna and there was a building owned by Viennese communist party and the communist party membership in Vienna shrank to mini scale proportion. They decided they are going to sell this building so after they put it on the market and the people took it, the squatters did and they’ve had it for 15 years because it was just too embarrassing for them. I mean the party tried to get them out but ultimately there are [0:21:33] [indiscernible] you know.

Male Speaker: By the way Alan, Aaron just mentioned the good TVTV on Copenhagen plus one in a building, I am not really sure exactly what it’s not really, my question is much but Aaron mentioned that TVTV also gets funds from the state, so it’s – but one side of the building, it’s all fenced but you know sometimes police come knocking and then on the other hand they actually get funding from the State so it’s a very strange situation. That’s [0:22:13] [inaudible]

Alan: You know there are some squats that are transformed into a State funded cultural institutions. And I believe it is in Zurich, the Rota fabric or the red factory, not the Rota flora in Hamrick but the Rota fabric has become cultural centered. It’s now funded by the State so it transformed. It has also transformed in the way that its run. It is no longer run by a popular assembly of people who would come together every week to decide what to do; it is run by administrator with a staff. Another voice from the deep

Chris: I have a question for you.

Alan: Yes.

Chris: My name is Chris Ryan, so I was wondering did the people who were not funded by the State they have to begin as antagonistic parties to the State and the State had to eventually give into the again the [0:23:18] [inaudible] the society they were part of therefore they should be supported by the state those who were antagonized or some states initially unable to get [0:23:27] [inaudible]

Alan: You know that’s a very complex kind of question. I really and in each country it is different.

Male Speaker: That makes it…

Alan: I think the most legitimated social center squats or cultural center squats or squats serving the creative community are probably in Holland. Holland is a very homogenous society and it’s a small country and they want everybody to get along, they don’t want to have really alienated elements so they try to accommodate. And they also want the artists, they have a very high percentage of artists, many many people, they want them to have some way of living and a way of making their work. So they will squat buildings and the squats will be regularized, normalized or enter into a relationship with the government of subsidy and then continue on and there are many many, I mean dozens. Not all are in Amsterdam but…

Male Speaker: [0:24:29] [inaudible] continue to happen as it has happened before [0:24:33] [inaudible] absorbed into spirit, enterprise that doesn’t have to [0:24:39] [inaudible]

Alan: Yeah, yeah it’s again a complex situation is very interesting in Eastern Europe which is formally communist. The people in Slovenia, in Lubiana Rogue, the Rogue is the name of bicycle manufacturing and there was a large factory that was on the edge of the city and it was vacant for many many years. They took it and the city announced no, no you can’t have it we have plans to develop it the same as happening with another Vinanpret [0:25:15] [phonetic] which is a factory in Amsterdam. and  but and Lubiana city government made an arrangement that for a certain number of years the squatters will be allowed to continue to run for the Rogue social center in the factory until the development is going to happen.

[0:25:37]

Male Speaker:  Okay

Alan:  So then because you can’t just say oh we are going to develop it get out and then it’s vacant for another 10 years

Male Speaker:  Right right. Got you. [0:25:48] [Inaudible]

Alan:  Well that’s you know how it runs, Yeah so…

Female Speaker:  I guess I was wondering if you could maybe, if there are no questions on Skype, talk a little bit about the goal of this incident and maybe kind of how it’s a zoo paid show a little bit and what your fans you know what they’ve learned from this what they’ve hoped to gain anything…

Alan:  Well my, the show came about because I was researching a book on the Lori Sykes squatting movement with Clayton Patterson with came out co-resistance and I started working on this research book in the 1999, 2000 and at that time I was researching on Lexus Nexus which is the journalist database, I have access and squatting, it’s all about riots, clearances, crime, there’s nothing at all about the social center movement. And the social center movement can be said to have started in Europe in 1978 with a Down Cavalow Social center, there’s a dossier, one of the clip boards. This old one and they’ve had this intention to make mainly social service political center for over 30 years. And you know when you look in the media, there’s nothing about it.

Okay, so I felt it was necessary to bring this information to a US audience and I begin in New York at ABC  Newrio and collective their work together to make the information, put the information and make these wall papers and make this kind of portable manifestation of sharing this information. It’s difficult because it’s in multiple languages you know about the Spanish movement, it’s in Spanish about the movement in Holland, it’s in Dutch even the archives in Holland, it’s all in Dutch, the finding aids are in Dutch cause it’s Dutch you know. But it’s still, I think you can see and now we have Google translate you can just damp the electronic text in and get a rough idea.

But it turns out there are many researcher’s now, younger academics are beginning to work on this, this book came out of what's this place stories from radical social centers in the UK and Ireland, it’s a PDF download, it goes basically city by city, center by center and documents for you know a couple of hundred pages all of the different centers in the UK and Ireland. so there’s beginning to be a lot more information and these - the way these centers are run and set up, the way that they negotiate with their populations, they are you know located in a particular urban community, the way they negotiate with the municipalities, the Governments, all of these are useful for people who are interested to do this kind of work.

So I felt the more that you can share this information, these strategies, the more it becomes known, people become more sophisticated in the way that they do it. A lot of people in The US who run info shops and so there is here a DVD called the [0:29:40] [inaudible] 2002 to 2004, across the US in info shops. They are not, they are doing it you know they are presenting, organizing radical information, making punk concerts and so but it’s sub-cultural, they don’t realize they are part of you know this larger movement and they have a, you know, an ability to expand their very small enterprise in certain directions so that’s the idea. I mean it’s very disarticulated, there’s a lot of different junk and many different languages but that’s the intention is ultimately you would come out with something like be like, you know social centers for dummies or best practices for social center cultivation.

[0:30:31]

Female Speaker:  But also to like meet people and organize right, that’s you know the, there’s something that I think you said before tonight was you know you started at ABC Newrio New York and then went to Chicago

Alan:  Yes

Female Speaker:  Right? And now you’re in Philadelphia and then you have a chance to go to Baltimore. So I mean it’s really like this kind of all across the US kind of tour almost of this information, it’s my understanding of it [0:31:02] [Inaudible]

Alan:  Well, in so far as I’m able to do it, yeah, that’s a scheme because I mean Manhattan is you know the center of global capital

Scott:  Okay, Alan sorry, would you mind kind of repeat, reiterating the kind of live response ahead of it, it’s okay but I think because of the kung fu, people can’t really hear all of…

Alan: The thundering of bodies of the floor above

Scott:  Yeah, it would help people, people are asking if you would mind repeating or if one of us wouldn’t mind repeating the question or if somebody has something to say they would get closer

Male:  Oh, you’re far away, yeah

Female Speaker:  I think, I mean, I can, if you want to take it, I can, I mean you can, but basically what I said was just, I guess I had asked the question of the goal of the show and one of the things that I don’t think was articulated yet tonight was just kind of where the show has already travelled and kind of the plans to communicate with different cities and kind of organize. so I was just kind of mentioning that it had, you know started in New York at ABC Newrio and then went to Chicago and then after that, it’s come, it’s here and then it has plans to go to Baltimore so that’s all that I said

Alan:  Yeah, actually it began, it was organized at ABC Newrio and then it went at the same time to Chicago and then afterwards it went to Queens for the summer and then now it’s here in the suit case version, this is the first suit case outing and I realize what I want to have is a little work station that goes along with it so that people can go online and add to this dossiers like accumulating the information further. so yeah, and then we’ll go to Baltimore, I’m invited to Redemmas 2640 space down there in February, I doubt I’ll be able to do it but probably in March. And then in Detroit in June, there is the US social forum, and I want to take this there. and also at the same time just start to gather in the examples of spaces that are similar in the US, put those together in a similar manner and take that to London in late June for this social center research meeting. There’s a place here that I was just aware of called Lava? Yeah.

Scott:  I just ordered the lake from someone else, I don’t know very much about that.

Alan: It’s very similar to a European social center, I believe they own the building it’s Lancaster Avenue, Lancaster Avenue autonomous space, so they do a lot of the same things

Scott:  So just before, Aaron actually have a question, I don’t know if anyone else did. but before we get to it I just want to [0:34:26] [inaudible] because Alan he just sort of posed that as a goal out of collecting this pile of information about, Mayor should speak, sorry guys, compile this information about US social centers, squat and central spaces? Squad buildings, squad and social centers I mean that could be something that some of the people here, whether people are on Skype or certain people in this room might be able, might be interested in an idea to help them. So it’s actually something that you can follow up on if anyone is interested. But yeah, so actually we have two questions in queue so should I, can you, oh, you can see…

[0:35:05]

Alan:  The first one, I don’t quite understand, it’s a regulatory function of such activities rather than the radical function, rather than like fighting to gain acceptance within a given system. No, I think, you know basically the social centers squatting movement they understand themselves as radical, enter capitalists, disobedience basis. They are very much and much invested in acting autonomously, taking direct action to reclaim space. So it’s not that they are really seeking to gain acceptance within a given system. but after you make this kind of insistence on your right to organize these activities in the center of the city, you need the resistance of the state so you have to then begin to negotiate and then you know, you get repressed or you get recuperated meaning that they either squash you or you know get some sort of deal and your functions are allowed to continue right?

So then you have to decide, do we want to continue under the conditions that have been laid down for us to do so you know, state subsidy, reorganization as a five months to three free corporation or the equivalent or do we want to fight till the end and be a victim? So these are all, sometimes they do, they just get squashed and that’s it because they don’t want to continue under a particular functional administrative gene

Scott:  But like you said it’s not just a once and done thing, it’s a cycle that sees to crop up again and again

Alan:  Yeah, I mean you know basically the motor for a lot of these social center squatting is very very it’s, I’d say the motor for a lot of  social center squatting is a really hard core anti capitalist political ideology be it communist, anarchist, socialist, you know, it’s against the state, it’s against capitalism. So yeah, it’s not like, how do I  you know study arts administration or I like very much great show less formulation extreme arts administration so you might think of it as being that you know in the sense

Scott:  We have another question from Adam in his class in Tennessee

Adam:  Can I talk a little about that positive tactics making the commune work before the tanks arrive? Well, I think basically the way these spaces run is as an assembly basis, they meet in an open assembly regularly and it’s a model expertise list, it’s you know, open democratic situation of course there are quadrays and

Scott:  I’m wondering if other not to ask Adam’s question this morning but I wonder are there things that the squats can do to sort of make themselves more amendable to the particular neighborhood you know, things that they might, strategies and tactics that they might employ, to sort of soften their immediate impact on the surrounding neighborhoods or….

Alan:  Well, the social center squatting movement makes a big effort to work with the communities; I mean that’s what they are basically about. They open up their doors, people come in, they form relationships and they embed themselves in the community. If they don’t succeed, then they will be evicted with no, no support. But if you get the neighbors, the buildings turning out I’d say to the police hey, hey, leave these guys alone what’s wrong with you? Which happens in Madrid and other cities I'm sure you know, it’s more difficult for them to be evicted. So the community relations are really basic to survival of the disobedience space. I mean there are many tactics too for resisting eviction itself but I mean people hang themselves on the outside of buildings and chairs, this is kind of wild you know.

[0:40:03]

Male speaker: So I thought that you were going to say something but I think we had something else come up but you said something about that it had been a center of capitalizism having an effect on the eventuality of squatting operations in Manhattan. Are there no, is it more difficult to effectively squat in Manhattan because the land is such a high premium you know also in that the system is so entrenched there that almost everything in Manhattan is controlled by very powerful interests and it is used to its maximum efficiencies, you know what I mean?

Alan: Well yes and no I mean it is the centre of global finance capitalism I think actually there is a real difference between the operation of markets.

Scott: Oh sorry they said someone couldn’t hear your question again.

Male speaker: My question?

Scott: Yeah I think it’s just that shuffling of the [0:40:52] [inaudible]

Male speaker: It’s the direction of microphone. I was just you know to reiterat4e, I was just asking if the function of Manhattan as the centre of commerce and sort of entrenched capitalism of Manhattan makes difficult for Manhattan to offer spaces that can be used by people this kind of movement?

Alan: Yeah well yeah it is also within the city of Manhattan it cannot be seen to succeed this kind of thing cannot be seen to succeed. So it’s a very highly policed situation. It is also artificially vibrant economy is artificially vibrant compared to other cities in the US.

Male speaker: Makes perfect sense.

Male speaker: There was a moment during the 1970s New York’s financial cities financial viability was very shaky the bonds were a junk and a lot of property was abandoned passed into the hands of the city for tax arrears. and as that property was being returned to private market that’s when the squatters took control of some buildings because the programs that were legitimate what was called slate equity where by people would take back buildings under city programs were being ended and the buildings were being sold to developed and flipped and flipped and flipped and flipped and crisis were going through the roof and the rents were going through the roof. So there was a moment a political moment to take those buildings and that’s you know the last moment when it was a successful squatting operation movement here in London.

Male speaker: One other thing I forgot to mention was that I would make the assumption that New York being the sort of magnet city that it is for people were interested in urban lifestyle you know in [0:42:46] [inaudible] short end. It would sort of see to magnetize people who would be interested you know sort of demographics that may be the target demographic of these movements. But so the concentration of the demographic being higher something that I had assumed you know just because I know New York just as a place where that would happen. However does it get chocked off by the bureaucracy in New York entirely saying there have been times when the veil slipped from New York [0:43:20] [inaudible] people have been able to make entrance it’s interesting.

Alan: Yeah I know. There is a lot of questions there.

Male speaker: Yeah I [0:43:29] [inaudible]

Alan: No the composition of the people who drive squatting movements is one part of your question and it’s really an it’s an interesting one. This varies around the country but in New York it was a lot of people who had backgrounds in the labor movement whose had communists or socialists parents, so an understanding of you know people power of movements. people who had trade skills who were able to actually take a [0:44:07] [inaudible] building and bring it back up to you know a habitable condition and people who had let us say [0:44:18] [inaudible] children who had the background of being able to deal with the legal system, the city political system, the media promoting their and organizing yeah. So it was a whole combination of different people with different capabilities. In European cities my guess is that most of these people are coming from political backgrounds that again that they are communists or socialists or anarchists. In Spain of course the anarchist’s movement is very deep a hundred years or more deep.

Male Speaker: Yeah.

Angela: I have a couple of questions my name is Angela [0:44:59] [inaudible] the first question was saying I was curious [0:45:03] [inaudible] where you talk about most of the US is not…

[0:45:08]

Male speaker: I hate to interrupt you but [0:45:11] [inaudible] maybe if you move it around but [0:45:16] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Its directional wise yeah.

Angela: My question is that I would argue that potentially in most of the US it’s not very conducive to squatter movements because of the I guess you would be  curious just to hear why I think that it is. But it doesn’t seem like there is very many successful squats at this point in the US. but I would say that I would pose it that one of the things that is most interesting about the squatter movement currently in the US is that people are rather than focusing on buildings they are taking over vacant land and they are [0:45:43] [inaudible] urban and post apoplectic [0:45:48] [inaudible]. I think right now is what is currently is really exciting in the most part of the in the US and also what I would say will be a more plus a legal movement where there is a lot of interesting spaces that exist that are operating somewhere the land of legal non-profit if I go and see three status and not squatting but certainly not running enough fully legal faction and that’s where interesting things are happening.

Alan: No you’re totally correct actually in this mark up for the second ezine of the catalogue of house magic there is a poster by Anton [0:46:22] [inaudible] side garden and squat movement Emerald Rose. and in Laurie side the housing is very dense and they took it for housing but in order to create some sort of cultural social space the gardens also were taken they became centers you know a little casitas were built, little stages so things were going on in there. Yeah and you are absolutely right Detroit is full of urban farm [0:46:50] [inaudible] there is a really interesting project in Baltimore called participation park and in Pittsburg landslide farms. So there are a number of these kind of organizations I really would like very much to…

Angela: There is a number of [0:47:04] [inaudible] here too as well.

Alan: Pardon?

Angela: There’s a number of [0:47:06] [inaudible] in Philly as well

Alan: Ah okay yeah I would love to find out about them and again gather that information in the similar way that we will present that to people in Europe. So because there is like one outside of Barcelona called [0:47:21] [inaudible] just it’s an old leper colony, leper hospital which has extensive gardens and grounds which have been turned into urban farms. And then there is a tunnack [0:47:37] [inaudible] of course which was I don’t know anything about except that people were arrested yeah.

Male speaker: We’ve got a long question with some examples from Steven.

Scott: It might be worth asking Steven just to kind of read it [0:47:50] [cross talk] pretty well.

Male speaker: Yeah maybe Steven could chime in.

Scott: If you are up to that Steven.

Male speaker: Can you get this?

Male speaker: Yeah we can [0:48:06] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yeah I hear you [0:48:11] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yes thanks Steve.

Steven: I want to read my question I didn’t want to get [0:48:20] [inaudible] as the way in which when you were talking about which is extremely interesting fixing to where great sort of paradigms for a Plausible Artworlds. I was trying to I mean I was giving a sort of conjecture about how that would work in the sense that the squatting actually is almost a typology or really gives it an image of how art worlds could actually become plausible by using the existing architecture, the existing but under used or under exploited architecture which exists as an urban landscape or as a conceptual landscape. And the idea would be that you know park could take place anywhere but it doesn’t actually have a home of its own. So it merely needs to address that question in its homeless, its transcendental homelessness by finding homes somewhere else.

And I gave that example from Martha Russell’s interesting project about homelessness and really the re-emerged like it hadn’t at least since the in the [0:49:38] [inaudible] period that project which you did in 1981 in [0:49:42] [inaudible] was a   really interesting conceptual project at the same time as it addresses the dire situations of people living without homes or under homes.

[0:49:55]

It also dealt with the question of arts almost as easy it refuse as an art project accepted as an activist project but was never embraced by the mainstream art world at that time. So that was a kind of example that I give, that I copy to replace the homelessness by art homelessness and housing by art system. But just speaking in conjecture on my part we would like to hear how you see this squatting world [0:50:21] [inaudible] and then I don’t know on the mainstream real estate but which allows can in the hypothetic way in other words which I guess which uses different sources of [0:50:44] [cross talk] without actually giving them the whole system the way I got to say is that the way you see it as a plausible in plausible artworlds?

Alan: Yeah no I was initially struck by the similarity between the intense matter of efforts that goes into a limited time for an art exhibition and the intense amount of effort that goes into a limited time to squat a building and to open it with a series for cultural and political and social programs they are very similar yeah. So they are parasitic, they are time bounded they are really model acts. Yeah the Martha Russell show yeah that was in 1989. Actually she evolved that in consultation with group material and it was a really influential exhibition one of the first so far as I know platform exhibitions which took an issue homelessness. again another reason why the New York squat succeeded was because they coincided with the mass social movement of poor people, large numbers of people were camped throughout the city and continually led camping being evicted by the city and then the recamping land because they were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of campers and thousands of homeless people in the city evolved now being evicted there was a pressure on the government pressure on the public to recognize this as an issue.

So the squatter sand some kind of social legitimacy which you know you just can’t generate for nothing. As an art world, yeah I think also you have now at this moment the rise of relational practice, participatory practice, kind of the hyper modifications of social sculpture and the social centre movement is totally networked and their presence is you know if you make a nice poster for the social centre concert series or film screening series it will be on the web, it will be seen by an international audience so that constitutes you know a market for graphic artists for people who are trying to have their work seen, to be with this movement and make signage for them.

So yeah I mean definitely there are worlds in which representation is key, how the social centre represents itself is instrumental in its maintenance or standing and falling Rose [0:53:17] [inaudible] is full of crazy analytical communists who really you know hang the bosses they have a terrible website and they are really in trouble with the city because post nine is trying to cultivate its closeness to Germany to become you know sort of a really centre for commerce. So yeah I don’t know is this coming towards an answer for your question?

Male speaker: I don’t know.

Male speaker: Its mine my dear.

Steve: Yeah sure.

Male speaker: Yeah.

Male speaker: Go ahead Steven.

StevenNo I mean I don’t want to monopolize the conversation because the, it was an unexpected way to have come with the answers.

Alan: Well you have a sense also of sort of how this movement plays out in France about which I know nothing absolutely nothing although I know that it was big in Paris for awhile.

Scott: Well there were Paris squats in late ‘90s which I’m a huge fan I’m sure it has a lot of history.

Alan: Yeah but it seems that France has sort of being outside of the social centre movement which is unfolded really in the south and in Germany in the east maybe I’m completely wrong about that.

Steven: Yeah east no you are absolutely right it’s a strange anomaly and I would say this about it I mean I don’t want to talk about France but in France there is a very strong institutional [0:54:58] [inaudible]  movement very honorable training, very powerful socials and communist parties, [0:55:02]  [inaudible] party groups represented in the national assembly and that means that there is literary no [0:55:07]  [inaudible] of culture accepted and swine’s as part of [0:55:13] [inaudible] culture it’s you know it’s something I mean I like being a [0:55:16]  [inaudible] powerful institution [0:55:19] [inaudible] the country it has been able to secure real or an interesting social benefits. But at the same time the country culture is really lacking. And it’s somehow re-emerged in the last couple of years in the very far right very sort of authoritarian and liberal government of [0:55:40] [inaudible] particularly you know the people who know the [0:55:44] [inaudible] which is in a certain respect created a country culture and it has created something maybe because the squatting social centers which you’ve been describing.

[0:55:57]

On another note you talked about relational [0:56:00] [inaudible] practices and how they tie into all these. I just like to point out that today the author of the book Relational Esthetics [0:56:12] [indiscernible] was appointed the top civil servant in the French culture of the bureaucracy I mean a very very high position, a very [0:56:23] [inaudible]  in terms of the administration of visual arts. So it just shows how relational esthetic was only probably a very [0:56:34]] [inaudible]

Alan: That could be helpful I don’t know.

Steven: Yeah but I think the question of the [0:56:52] [inaudible] we are not here to talk about France the rights were [0:56:58] [inaudible] they were a direct source on the institutionalize and mainstream political democratic state which [0:57:11] [inaudible]

Alan: Yeah well they are of course in the social centers in the political side there are movements there are specific concerns serving migrates resisting [0:57:28] [inaudible] kind of working against the police in the borders is a really strong current of political current in the social centre movement. so yeah its attempting to create solidarities that are very different and actually is a big divide in the US between Spanish speaking movements and immigrant movements which are extremely strong and I would say are the dominant social movements in this country and the wide left you know which is really serialized, academisized and kind of atomized so that’s just like a big problem.

Steven: Yeah and I will ask you to [0:58:18] [inaudible] what you said because it looks that you will be [0:58:20] [inaudible] parallel draw between the sort of micro politics squat social centers and this attempts on the part of people in the [0:58:37] [inaudible] European they kind of squat work as Europe [0:58:41] [inaudible] is there a parallel logic there?

AlanNo that does that makes a lot of sense yeah. I’m looking at 200 [0:58:55] [inaudible]

Male speaker: I have a question for you.

Alan: Yeah.

Male speaker: Just so it seems like when you were referring to the New York the successful squatting of in New York a lot of that had to do with certain presence of catastrophes that when caused the sharp edge of disfranchising to sort of [0:59:15] [inaudible] you know what I mean so the seems just sort of when catastrophe becomes imminent and people are become less comfortable in their status as at least I don’t know the end franchises in the society they might be looking for an alternative sort of support system and that’s where these places come in in Europe you know for people who actually - you know for instance you can’t really say that the Muslim you know the immigration, marginalization of Muslims in America is as if it’s a different situation in Europe.

So people.0:59:52]  [inaudible] so those people are coming over, immigrating with the knowledge that they are not going to become franchise they are not looking for the “American dream” style of franchise but they are looking for refuge. and you know so that’s also the alternative way of I guess provided by squatter social centers might be more useful for people in this country where there are imminent catastrophes, more widespread catastrophes such as you were explaining what’s happening in New York in the ‘70s [1:00:29] [inaudible] to the you know people supporting these actions as opposed to stopping them.

[1:00:35]  

Alan: Yeah no again a very complex kind of question no no it’s cool. I think in Europe the immigrants many African are economic migrants. They are coming because they need the work right and their countries of course also many are in war. In the US, Mexican farmers are coming because there are free trade agreements have ruined local agriculture subsidized American corn is driving Mexican corn farmers who have been subsistence farmers, locally based agricultural systems have been devastated by those free trade agreements so they are coming here to work and support their families. you know a vast stretch of this country was Mexico in the past so you know you have lube dobs screaming about the [1:01:30]  [inaudible] you know okay you know hey what the fuck you know this is America it’s not the Unites States. United States is not America, you know America is very very large and its sort of homeostatically re-equalibrising itself you know.

So anyway yeah I know very much what Steven said about the micro climates of social centers because in Europe it’s a very strong attempt to create exactly the kind of diversity and multi-cultural environment that in the United States we have. Particularly in certain sub-cultural spheres which don’t constitute art worlds and the sense that we understand that but you know like the punk and the hip hop scene are cultural spheres in which there is a lot of multi-cultural interaction. And so like the circles, cultural centre in Madrid which is on the edge of the city they mainly serve immigrants they try to do the legal counseling, they try to teach immigrants Spanish many of the Africans speak English which is kind of strange. But the core of people who run the place are Spanish you know and ethnically pretty homogeneous. So it’s kind of a little odd but they are trying again to create those links that they do not have.

Scott: Can I ask people here how many people know about - oh sorry can I ask people that are here now I know like [1:03:14] ] [inaudible] talked about it over the telephone very briefly but I just want to hear how  many of you guys are aware at all of what’s happening pretty locally with squats. because I know like pretty much squat about it I don’t know anything about this movement that’s going but you know it’s not really something that I can connect to while here because I have been here for the last 15 years. So I was just curious if any of you guys are?

Female speaker: [1:03:40] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yeah I don’t know interested in they are interested in things happening locally that in some way connect to this or tell me a little about it and wouldn’t mind chatting about it together. I am just a little bit curious. And I know Alan had just a – to put it into context confidence too one of the things that [1:03:58]  [inaudible] do is talk to more and I mean tell me if I’m wrong Alan but you wanted to talk with more people in the US about how they see squats and

Alan: Oh very much, yeah.

Male Speaker: And so I know that…

Male Speaker: [1:04:10] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Yeah that will be great if you don’t mind.

Male speaker: Do I need to get up?

Male speaker: Sure well you don’t have to we can move this a little closer.

Abel: I’m Abel Gevins [1:04:20] [phonetic] I’m an artist in the city and I have been involved in artist communities here in the city for some unseemingly long time. And Philadelphia has always had a lot of squatting and it still does. Have we talked about the sort of the two different kinds of squatting based on class? I think it’s been touching but I don’t really know because there has been much discussion about that?

Female speaker: Not Much I don’t know what that means.

[1:04:53]

Abel: Well there are people all over the city squatting because they are poor and because there are all these empty buildings so they don’t have to move into a building. And there is no generally no theory being behind that squatting beyond I need a place to live and look there is an empty building. And then there is you know the European social centre model of squatting coming out of theory, coming out of political belief system and a commitment to social change. And there has been some of that in Philadelphia that I have known of, I have been on the franchise of smaller attempts over the years of that. And I think the one thing that we don’t have in the States very much they have had a lot in Europe is that the squatters’ rights. I have a lot of friends who squatted in London in the ‘70s, and ‘70s and early ‘90s and they had squatters’ rights. and if you moved into a building that was empty and you stayed there long enough they couldn’t kick you out you know they just could not kick you out without taking you court and going through this long long process. So it made for a lot more stability I know people who live in squats in London for years and years and years and they were squats the whole time and we have never had anything like that here.

Male speaker: I must say that in New York during the squatter movement in the ‘80s and ‘90s there was a very significant expansion of case law for exactly that if you established your residency you cannot just be evicted by police action they would have to take you to court then you can argue you know many different arguments.

Alan: Yeah yeah but in England especially I know because that’s where most of my friends were squatting it was enshrined in the common law for a hundreds of years so it was just a part of the…

Male speaker: Its common laws.

Alan: Part of the law.

Male speaker: Its like case I mean it’s not an English in English it seems different yeah. In Italy the squatting has no basis.

Alan: No no no legal basis.

Male speaker: But they stay because political.

Alan: Yeah yeah and I think there are just so many differences between European social movements and US social movements and that’s a whole other thing.

Male speaker: I have a question like in the London squats can is there any incentive for the squatters to move out like when they get incentives of like electricity and water.

Alan: They could sadly with Margret Thatcher being elected most of these laws were slowly chipped away so there is not a lot of protection any more there is still a lot of squatting in London and there are a number of squatting entity social centers in London still but they don’t have a whole lot of legal defense anymore they are getting kicked out. I was over there couple of summers ago and I was hanging out with people who were in one squatting social centre and they had squatted in another building because they thought they were going to get kicked out of the first one but they ended up getting kicked out of the second one before they got kicked out of the first one.

Philadelphia has an incredibly rich history of poor people squatting because they need a place to live. One of the very strange and funny very American things is that in the late ‘70s and in early ‘80s Melton Street was sort of there was a grass roots squatting movement Philadelphia was so devastated at that point and so much was empty and there were so many really poor people. people really started to go out and do it and they started to organize and this insanely opportunistic pair of brothers Melton Street and John Street saw their opportunity and went in there and became leaders and then just sold the whole thing up so that…

Female speaker: What part of Philly was that in?

Male speaker: It was everywhere they were mostly in south west but north Philly south west yeah.

Female speaker: Because you said Melton street and John street.

Alan: Yeah.

Female speaker: And those were people not streets.

Alan: Oh sorry yeah John Street is the ex mayor of Philadelphia sorry about that and Melton was his kind of [1:09:29] [inaudible] crazy brother who, is he in jail now?

Male speaker: Yeah.

Alan: I think he is in jail now yeah. So there was that very very exciting and really rich squatting thing going on but it didn’t have the theoretical background to it and it was more of an individual thing. There was a certain amount of squatting buildings for use as for social services but it was never on the same level and never done in the same spirit. And that I have been involved in some [1:10:02] [inaudible] projects over the years where we are trying to do some squatting and it’s just really unless you hide in Philadelphia you just get kicked out right away I mean I was you know I watched my friend being dragged out of a building and then they came in with a racking ball destroyed the building because it is better to destroy it than to have people living in it for free.

Male speaker: You were in Philly? Like I was I have figured that there is places in north Philadelphia where like officials have a bigger problems looking for squatters in the building.

Alan: Oh they are not looking for them I’m talking more about I mean there are still lots and lots of poor people who are just squatting in buildings I’m talking more about trying to create something along the lines of these social centers something public that’s maybe has a live in component but it’s just as much as creating social centre.

Male speaker: It’s more of a social challenge so channels the net.

Alan: Yeah very quickly and very efficiently, so exactly.

Male speaker: I was going to say it makes me feel like kind of like [1:11:06] [inaudible] paying rent but…

Alan: Yeah no no you have a [1:11:11] [inaudible]

Male speaker: Very [1:11:14] [inaudible] books I have [1:11:16] [inaudible] since 25 years of occupation against the interest of the owner of property and you becoming on the owner of that property. So it depends on whether you manage to keep up your quarters and you know you [1:11:35] [inaudible] occupy this land and you just didn’t so the activist [1:11:37] [inaudible] but anyway if you qualify then you do get title.

Alan: I don’t know about that.

Male speaker: Adverse possession.

Male speaker: Adverse possession yeah that kind of adverse possession doesn’t happen very often it’s just.

Alan: Yeah that’s the longest time it took.

Female speaker: Do you have a question I understand that [1:11:53] [inaudible] mention there is a pretty rich and substantial history of squatting in West Philadelphia I know a lot about Philadelphia houses that’s being going on for many years. and there is a lot of I think [1:12:05] [inaudible] organizations in West Philadelphia that are maybe now more legitimate but I think in a lot of ways it belongs similarly to the social centers.

Alan: Oh yeah and I was…

Female speaker: [1:12:16]  [inaudible] they are more legitimate and so therefore are able to sustain themselves but are actually very much and I think this [1:12:23]  [inaudible] like land trust houses for example or need space I think there is a lot of actually really excited social activists in this in particular. Unfortunately what makes me really sad is that there is a vibrication between what I consider like the grass roots visual art community and the grass roots active zone community [1:12:43] [inaudible]which for some reason is very separate but are doing very small things and its unfortunately they don’t share about those more.

Alan: Yeah well I’m a part of the woodenship books collective and we are we just moved into  a really amazing space and we are doing a lot more events and hopefully we are going to be collaborating at Basekamp on some stuff and maybe we can work on some of that stuff.

Male speaker: Yeah it was one of the things we were hoping we would address a little bit after this kind of talk to get some of the people that are here can talk together about [1:13:17] [inaudible]

Male speaker: There is a question I think it’s I guess for you pal.

Male speaker: Yeah I’m looking at this extract from Adam Travage, yeah how [1:13:36] [inaudible] doing the successful squat gentrification witness successful squat automatically become a tool of preparation for your gentrification?

Alan: Yeah this happens again it depends on conditions the squats that a guy from Zurich was describing his situation where squatters had moved into a particular area and because they had this really good parties much more free than night clubs, much cheaper, more crazy the neighborhood became a place for young people to go and they started to build condos there. Yeah so that happens and when I was at the city from the law conference in Baltimore in the spring of last year there was a guy from Philadelphia who took a really extreme position and you know speaking for the community of color saying that he thought the squatters in Philadelphia should be attacked because they were the advanced crowd guard of gentrification, white punks that was an extreme position but yeah it’s an issue it’s a problem.

Most of the squatter the social centre squatters and even the very crusty, drunken punk squatters and I’m thinking of Eric of Eric Lyle in San Francisco. The name of his book is escaping right now but he is describing the market street punks who did squatting and squatted a theater. They organized against gentrification, they helped to organize the community, they make it their business to do that political work. So in that sense in the same way that in the Lori’s side during the gallery movement of the 1980’s the PAD group, political art documentation and distribution group, organized a not for sale  project to kind of in list the art community in resisting gentrification, yes it happens its part of the process.

There is somewhere there is a secret manual for real estate’s developers that describes how to use artists and to use squatters as the advanced guard of gentrification. All you can do I think is really to be sensitive to the problem and to try to organize your communities against those things, trying to connect people with housing lawyers and so forth. Poor communities tend to be disorganized and often, I am not saying defenseless but you know their defenses are weak against that sort of thing. But at this moment of economic crisis that’s kind of not really the big problem.

Male speaker: Thanks Amanda, see you. Yes there’s—I was just looking at—there is on the web a film about squatting in Philadelphia.

Alan: Yes it’s really good.

Male speaker: Yes.

Male speaker: Yes I talked about that when [1:17:00] [inaudible], it’s about the [1:17:02] [inaudible] that I was talking about the street brothers kind of came in…

Male speaker: So that’s recent?

Male speaker: No that’s mid early 80’s that they were involved [1:17:21] [inaudible].

Alan: No it’s, I think it’s really good to reconnect these histories.

Male speaker: Yes.

Alan: I mean before the squatting movement in New York which is pretty well known there was a community land trust movement in a home steady in the 70s you know before the real estate was valorized. So that’s like really forgotten and all of those lessons and that those modalities of organizing are not really all brought up to the surface. And the more people know about them the better off we are.

Male speaker: Yes we should track a copy of that [1:18:14] [inaudible] of years and years and years, track it down. Are there any other questions? Oh good.

Male speaker: I have question, Alan can you talk about how many classes of this [1:18:29] [inaudible] historical center in the community and what was into like promoting [1:18:38] [inaudible].

Alan: Well I mean I have really never, I have not been a part of this you know, we did a building occupation for like 36 hours and we are very open and public and we are shut down, this was in New York 30 years ago. But I think basically the squat is very open in public; in the second issue there is a group of people, of two people who are involved in a squat in Barcelona. They squatted the building first, the established everything inside secretly then they had a public opening with a big crowd and a big party. So they set up and they were running and you know they did a lot of stuff right away and it was busy, busy, busy. Yes so that’s how they did it but again really strong social movement, really strong anarchist union, all of the stuff of you know different conditions. I think they are all kind of based on local conditions and how they develop, but they are definitely committed collective groups of people that make these things happen and they are planned carefully and executed deliberately.

[1:20:22]

Scott: Any other questions either here or online? You guys can also unmute your mics if you want to talk.

Female speaker: Or type of questions?

Michael: I have a question, my name is Michael here at Basekamp I am curious I want to hear about a little bit more of the kind of organization and activities that happen at the social centers. [1:20:58] [inaudible] what else do the big centers provide in the conventional social services [1:21:08] [inaudible].

Alan: Well basically they have similar components, they have an info shop like a bookstore or library, they have a café, they have very often a weekly people’s kitchen open food situation, they will have a bicycle repair shop and maybe the critical mass large scale bike ride is organized out of there. They will have a free shop where people can come and bring things and exchange things, they may have a sowing workshop where people can modify clothing and sow together and they very often become venues for concerts. In Italy tire are some very large squats one in a  former military base which hosts hip hop concerts and hip hop entertainers often, you know particularly in Europe and coming from Africa have a really strong political edge and regular venues for music don’t want them even if they are very popular so they go to the social centers.

My friend who was touring his wild style hip hop New York he went to the social centers in Europe. Also a lot of punk bands it’s a heavy sub cultural punk things so those things go to the squatter social centers. I’m sort of a little fried here but those are the components that I can think of, oh silk screen, they have silk screen workshops that are kind of regular components of these places. Oh and a hack lab that’s really key yes, often internet radio station that comes out of a pirate radio station tradition, you know short low powered broadcasts that there  is actually an article in here about  that movement in Italy, telestreet [1:23:22] [phonetic].

So they have a media center and hacking knowledge, this is one of the things that’s getting recuperated in Madrid because you know for the society to move into the electronic era you know people have to have these skills. So they are being developed in the social centers in the Hack labs, so they are now hiring people who are coming out of the social center movement to teach media skills in the media centers. So yes I mean to a great extent that is the strongest argument for the social center movement is that they developed open source software through combinations and particularly in Holland. And kind of generated a whole lot of technical capacity in societies that didn’t have it, so the squats are sort of like Silicon Valley you know, I mean that’s exaggeration but yes.

Female speaker: I have another questions about, I guess you know I am not very well versed so forgive me, make a [1:24:32] [inaudible] here but I guess I have a couple of examples. One of something similar happening, a similar type of movement where people buy a property from the city for like a dollar and they are allowed to squat there and create some type of business there but there is always the ability for the city to kick them out. And the example that I am thinking of is in Baltimore, this gallery called Current, Current gallery, it bought this building for a dollar and I don’t really know how this works but –and they set the gallery there and yes I was just wondering if you knew any more information about that or if that was somehow related to the social status, I don’t know.

[1:25:37]

Alan: I think so, I mean essentially the key question is it’s about development you know. You want to develop your city, you want to develop your community, you want to do it right? But unless you have a large amount of money get lost, forget it.

Male speaker: I can way be in a little bit [1:25:58] [inaudible].

Alan: The question is, is the value of labor and imitative, does it have any occurrence as opposed to the value of money per say.

Female speaker: Right.

Alan: So if you have the intention and you have the willingness to put your energy in, cities when they become desperate they recognize okay you can have sweat equity exactly, you are going to work and that will be equivalent to having you know X hundred thousand dollars that you are willing to put at risk.

Male speaker: I think you are referring to like the year—and I will admit that [1:26:33] [inaudible] early 60s, 70s took over spaces, the government allowed that [1:26:42] [inaudible]

Female speaker: Right.

Alan: There is a small city outside Cleveland where that’s exactly what’s happening, the mayor is offering buildings to artists straight up. You can just come have a building and this is a year old information and I don’t remember the name of the city because in wasn’t concentrating on The US at the time but it’s happened, because they are desperate the city is collapsing.

Scott: Well and just, I mean in Philadelphia for example we were highly considering maybe five [1:28:00] [inaudible], there is a question on queue here by I just wanted to sort of like mention something about local for a second. We were seriously considering about maybe, maybe at this point it was like six or seven years ago, moving to the United States about 10 blocks north of here. You know we were offered like a pretty large plot of land for a dollar at the city basically and it was like just North of Gerard which at this point is like actually fairly pricy and in such a short time. But the reason that we were offered this is because we were going to sink like maybe $400,000 into like building a building there or like you know actually erecting a building and we were just borrowing the money you know.

We had you know something kind of goofy but you know some kind of green building that would have been awesome, some designer who wanted to design the outside of it they were like oh yes that sounds great. And of course you know it’s really about gentrifying the area it’s not so much, you know it’s sort of like win some lose some, you know there is an area where there is not much going on it’s a lot of tumble weeds and kind of white racists in that area and there is not a lot economically going on so we will go ahead and invite these artists and you know for one little plot that used to be like a toxic super site you know. And you know what I mean so it seems generous on one hand and on the other hand it’s really just how can we speed up the gentrification process and not getting soap box about it because we ended up deciding not to mostly not really for political reasons as much as just we didn’t—we would have had to put our own like projects on hold for a couple of years just to be able to afford it and like work our asses of just to do it. And then we decided we’d rather just not own something, but maybe that was dumb but that was our choice.

[1:29:54]

Alan: The land slide farm in Pittsburg I saw them present and they, I am not sure exactly how they began but they own some of the land, they are squatting some of the land, they have like three or four different conditions or use, arrangements with the city for other parts of the land. But the land is built over one of these collapsing lines so there were a bunch of houses there but the houses are like falling into this abyss so everybody had been evacuated. It’s essentially a disaster area its useless, so they made a farm and the city went out of their way to organize different kind of arrangements so that they could do this with the limited capital. But of course when the summit of the financial community, not the GA but that was in Pittsburg recently, the police came around to make sure that these guys weren’t hosting any activist so.

Male speaker: Wow! staggering.

Male speaker: There is actually, I am sorry there is actually an active that they do the Art school of West Philadelphia, it’s a place that started like that they got offered the super [1:31:17] [inaudible] site which was a brown field left over by an old store, a [1:31:25] [inaudible] store. And they began rebuilding it and cleaning up and everything and it started to work when now they used to open a few months ago in Eastern West Philly. So it’s, you know it’s happening right here but they are just—they are looking  more for funding through the bright initiative and you know a lot of [1:31:50] [inaudible]. So they are basically a—like I mentioned this because before, previously we were talking about like giving the right use to the squatted land you know to grow communities that are self sufficient and all  that stuff so that’s what they are trying to do there.

Male speaker: Well Alan you have a question.

Male speaker: Perhaps I have to do this but maybe we can just move them like next to Alan.

Male speaker:  Oh excellent or you could just pull your chair out.

Male speaker: Sure yes.

Scott: You mean as long as [1:32:20] [inaudible].

Male speaker: But I wanted to ask about a question about the project House magic is  research and about this collection of various squatting situation, they are all very interesting and  useful but I want to ask about your under pending question that you might be working  on they are researching these projects that we’ve been answering. Yes basically this begun as a propaganda initiative, initially I wanted to call it collective propaganda. But you know basically that was the intention, was to bring these situations which are very interesting to public attention in the US and try to offer them as models.

So that was the intention, at this point I am more interested to kind of gather all the situations that seemed to me to be prefiguartive of kind of new social relationships that we need to construct because the kinds of atomized super consumptive society that we’ve built is doomed yes? So we need to reconfigure it, so maybe that’s sort of grandiose but that’s my intention it’s in my mind pretty clear. But as a research project I would be happy to get out of it as quickly as I could and collectivize it and somehow to turn it into something that is forward moving, you know a thing that a lot people are doing to collect these stories and information and put them out.

Scott: Are you sure you don’t want to brand this project Alan Moore House Magic?

Alan: Absolutely not, not unless it’s the other Alan Moore he can have it; I am hoping he will jump on it.

Scott: Maybe you have been talking about doing a comic book.

Alan: Yes I am going to do a comic book because I think my name could sell.

Scott: Oh it’s the other guy yes. Well there is seems like there is definitely a lot of interests in  contributing to something like this so, any last comments we’ve got about one minute before we have a—not that it’s a drop dead cut off line but we are approaching 8:00, oh it is 8:00. Yes but luckily someone just asked the question who is the other Allan Moore?

Alan: Oh good, Alan Moore?

Male speaker: Try Google.

Scott: Yes there is a fairly well known comic book or graphic novelist.

Male speaker: Yes he is pretty awesome.

Male speaker: He wrote watchmen.

Alan: I sign as Alan W so.

Male speaker: Can we talk about maybe the [1:35:11] [inaudible] that can relate to this project.

Scott: Absolutely and if anyone has  to go I mean don’t feel obligated to stay especially those in Europe who are like up at 2:00 in the morning right now we a really think you guys are troopers and love having you here. There is still about a dozen people on the line right now so that’s pretty or, actually less now sort of dropped down to eight locations. But oh, actually someone would like to be re-added; can you let them know that we are reading them?

[1:35:42]

Male speaker: Yes most of the time.

Male speaker: Yes that’s [1:35:44] [inaudible].

Male speaker: Yes the thing we wanted to do at the end of each of these, at each of these chats and it really won’t take very long, normally we do a little bit before 8:00 but okay, Is continue to address this question about art or just kind of ask you guys about follow up ultimately people that you know, during most of our chats and we have been doing these weekly chats for about five years before really sharpening the focus through the plausible artworlds projects starting three weeks ago. And at the end of almost every single  one of them there is generally, I mean a number of people, a lot of people usually who express enthusiasm to follow up and I know that that’s not coming at this much because that was sort of in mentioning it out loud. But our goal with the public school launch in Philadelphia is to try to use this extremely vague and open but still useful framework to follow up with other people who want to continue on with different topics not necessarily hard core research topics although some of them could be. But even just kind of follow up with any of our curiosities about things that might come up for each week’s chat. So…

Male speaker: As conceivable first.

Scott: Right as proposals for  courses, things that could be like seriously easy proposals like, you know like for instance how does, you know 10 strategies for squatting a building or just getting just people that are interested to know more about the history of European squatter social center etcetera. There is like a lot of material here I don’t if you guys have seen the he flicker photos, the great post. But there is actually like a lot of hand books that like I am definitely not going to get though any time soon, but a lot of these things we can post to our data work and kind of contribute. Anyway I won’t go on about this but if you guys have any thoughts about this the best ways its I mean like just sort of throw out your proposals either now or on  the comments section on the event Basekamp to come we will send the link. Or just email us or Skype us or try to call us or anything, text message us and we will try to help make it happen on the public school sight.

Scott: Or post comments to the event’s message board here in the Basekamp.

Male speaker: Right.

Scott: Yes I did say that but that’s okay I will even send the link.

Male speaker: I think Adam sent the earlier [1:38:28] [inaudible].

Scott: Here is the link and I will send like a direct little—go ahead and throw comments in there or send us your email address if you like to we will keep you informed about anything that anyone else posts along with this particular thread. Anyway that almost sounds like a sales pitch but really there is a set up here to kind of help people who want to follow up on stuff if you do. But yes I guess if there is any other burning like questions and stuff you know like feel free to send them and we can try to follow up that route.

Alan: I will post online research is [1:39:11] [inaudible].

Male speaker: Okay if you guys didn’t hear Alan [1:39:13] [inaudible] online researchers to, because there really are a lot along these lines. I don’t mean to make it sound boring just by describing it that way I think they are actually pretty engaging so.

Alan: I have an article in the ezine [1:39:29] [inaudible] about relationships between artist collectors and squatters and [1:39:34] [inaudible].

Scott: Okay yes and that kind of – I don’t know if you’ve heard that Stephen but that kind of addressed your question. But anyway yes just so that we don’t like making it a habit of going of going, like starting late then going over and making people especially who stay up late feel kind  of too tired, we should probably wrap  it up.

Male speaker: Okay.

Scott: Thanks a lot for coming Alan it’s really a pleasure to have you, follow up in the internet.

[1:40:12] End of Audio