Week 12: Au travail / At Work collective

(Audio set up chatter and group chatter)

[Scott]: Domenic, have you heard from Steven recently?

[Domenic]: He write me through Facebook.

[Scott]: (laughing) okay.  I spoke with him this morning.  He's probably just running behind and I know he is eager to join us.  But since I'm not sure what is going on with him I don't think we should really wait for him.  But okay, great.  So welcome Domenic, it is really great to have you.  I'm just going to give a really super shore introduction for everyone here that doesn't know who Dominick is and what this is about and then get right into hearing from you about Au Travail, the At Work group if that is okay with you.

 I'm not exactly sure how informal or formal this is but Dominick's alter ego is Bob the Builder.  I can never really tell if I should be addressing you as Bob or Domenic.

[Domenic]: (0:03:58.2)

[Scott]: Okay.  So tonight we'll be talking with Bob the Builder from Au Travail, the At Work collective in Montreal.  Or at least the group is based in Montreal.  Ultimately I have been telling people that we are going to be talking people who make art at work.  From my understanding, Au Travail, in a sense is a residency program and in a sense it is the collective and in a sense it's a kind of art world.  But are also not necessarily any of those exactly.  From my understanding Bob, you have seen people's places of labor as readymade artist residencies.  Fully equipped with an organization that pays you money to basically exist there and do whatever it is that you do that back as all of the other features of a residency if you treat it that way  And I think there is a bit more about recuperating labor.  I'd be really curious to hear from you, if you wouldn't mind just giving us all a really brief introduction to the At Work group and how it got started and specifically even just practically how it works if you wouldn't mind.  That is a really big interest of mine.  It would be great to give an intro.

(Domenic]: So you want me to tell you how we all started? First, the collective is not so much about originality because lots of people have been working since they (inaudible 0:05:59.9). And At Work practices are as old as work itself.  So we didn't invent anything the only original thing about this project is that we have decided to be a group of people (inaudible 0:06:25.5 - 0:06:59.5) a social projects would be easily something (inaudible0:07:08.7)

[Scott]: Sorry, Domenic?  Could you just repeat that last part again I think it might have been my fault.  I was moving the speaker and it was really cutting off and on.  Sorry.

[Domenic]: Is that alright?

[Scott]: And we will be muting our audio too because there is Kung Fu.  The people that come here regularly know this, there is Kung Fu above our heads and it can start to get some feedback.  And actually, everyone else who is on the call has already taken the queue to mute their audio which is nice.  So don't think that we have gone away.

[Domenic]: So, should I go?

[Scott]: Please, yes.

[Domenic]: So I would like to explain the project (inaudible 0:07:54.0) as object of collaboration.  Which means that they are helping us to make art in a social project (inaudible 0:08:08.0).  We don't have any needs to them we just go out and use what we need on the job.  Me, I have been doing it for about five years now.  But we have always been doing this somehow because I'd never have jobs that really fulfilled my desire as an artist, as we are free thinkers.  I slacked at all my jobs.  But to call it art and to (inaudible 0:08:56.1) as data in the art world is a nice (inaudible 0:09:04.4).  It gives me a bit more confidence that people that are part of the collective are more confident to go that way and knowing that there are more people around doing it.  The bigger we are the smarter.

[Scott]: And how many people are involved with Au Travail right now?

[Domenic]: It's really hard to judge but I would estimate (inaudible0:09:37.4) of people.

[Scott]: Did you say 300 people?  Sorry, did you say 300 people?  Hey Bob?

(Inaudible 0:10:06.4)

[Scott]: Yeah, it's actually because the mic what was not in all the way.  Sorry.  So you probably answered me twice.  Did you say that it was…?  Oh, 300 to 400 people.  Wow.  I thought it was 130 people but that was last year.

[Domenic]: The last time we talked, yes.  It was probably around there.  We've had a lot of people involved since because we have had extensive (inaudible 0:10:35.6) from colleagues.

[Scott]: Could you tell us a little bit about some of the things that people do at work?

[Domenic]: Can you repeat?  I didn't get that.

[Scott]: Can you tell us a little bit about some of the things that people do at work?

[Domenic]: Do you mean as the in the project?

[Scott]: Yeah.  I mean I know generally what people do when they are working or a lot of jobs but specifically what you are doing is...

[Domenic]: (inaudible 0:11:18.2) the last project was (inaudible 0:11:26.2) was a young man who works for public television (inaudible 0:11:35.0) of digital files (inaudible 0:11:39.6) archives that they had digitalized.  The job was to go through the archives and back to the original tapes (inaudible 0:11:56.5 - 0:12:30.4).  Normal people were just checking on the side of the (inaudible 0:12:33.9) talking about the weather. (inaudible0:12:41.8 0:13:13.4).Are you there?

(Massive sounds of Kung Fu in background)

[Scott]:  Yeah, we're here.  The audio cut out for just a second and I think we kind of recovered it.

[Domenic]: Okay.

[Scott]: Hmm...  I'm causing because I can tell that actually cause or…

(Laughter)

 Okay, great. Yeah, Bob, I would really like to hear, or can we look at...  I think the audio just cut out.  Or the signal cut out entirely.  Well guys, we will see how this goes.

(Kung Fu and background noise only 0:14:15.9 - 0:14:46.9)

[Scott]: Yeah, it's interesting using Skype for these.  Sometimes you get varying results.  Right now we are trying our second attempt.  There we go.

(Kung Fu and background noise only 0:14:55.4 - 0:15:38.5)

[Scott]:  This is supposed to be the best connection, 4G.

(Kung Fu and background chatter only 0:15:39.4 - 0:16:47.9)

[Scott]: Yeah, this would be a terrible place to end.  Because I feel like he's sort of just gotten started (inaudible 0:16:52.7).

(Kung Fu and background chatter only 0:16:52.7 - 0:17:32.5)

[Domenic]: ...were working for Santa Claus for the Huffington Post and they were supposed to write back letters to kids who were asking for gifts from Santa Claus.  The kids only had the write to Canada and then the kids would receive a letter back from Santa Claus.  Those guys were hiring for this service and we're starting to write really bad things to kids.  Things like " your mom is it a (expletive 0:18:16.2)" or "you won't get any gift" (inaudible 0:18:21.8) and end that we started to search and had to stop the service for 48 hours which partially paralyzed the letters.  Like a human chain of letters, they stopped it for 48 hours.  And when you think of all that, it's funny to think about it because it's really bad to write letters like that to kids but at the same time how bad it is to teach kids that it was Santa Claus (inaudible 0:19:12.1).  I like that because it brings out, I don't know.  You think twice about after (inaudible 0:19:22.2).

[Scott]: Hey Domenic, could you send us the link to your website again?  I only have an older presentation site on 50megs.com.  Is it possible to type it?  Are you still holding a baby in one arm?

(Laughter)

[Domenic]: Oh, it's slipping out.  Our web site is hosted by and arts center in (inaudible 0:20:04.8), Holland who had in residency decided to host our site.  It's an old version of the site right now but you still get a lot of things there.  Can you get it?

[Scott]: Yes, absolutely.  Thank you.

[Domenic]: Okay.

[Scott]: I know we have a lot of information from you that we will really be talking about were using.  Talking about or using in tonight's show that we can put up the video stuff throughout the next couple of months.  That's great to see this site.  So really I just wanted it to get a good sense of…  Steven Wright has been talking with us about Au Travail for years now.  And then we had that discussion when we are at the Invisible Networks Conference in the UK, which was really interesting.  I think a lot came out of that and I would like to get into just kind of bring everyone here up to speed up bit.  The other thing is that we are recording these sessions; we're recording these communications, so that we can use that material to help to build tangible archives of examples of different kinds of Artworlds.  So, I think…  I am trying to stand in for the kinds of things that Steven would be asking if he were here but...

(Laughter)

 I will talk about ontological landscapes but I want to ask ultimately if you see this project as a kind of, I am not saying I see this, I'm just curious.  If you see this project as a kind of session from other creative culture systems or kinds of art world or art sustaining environments because it is sustainable in itself, a weird way.  It's already a readymade Artworld of sorts.  Or do you see a lot more connection and overlap with other kinds of art sustaining environments?  If you know what I mean?  I was thinking of some of the people that work in like art handling and things like that and have done at work projects.

[Domenic]: There are a lot of individuals we hear about us and then they decide to join and have been practicing this form of (inaudible 0:23:06.6) or something like that, they have been practicing it for years.  The collective works more like a socket for people to greet and know each other's projects.  Ultimately the point of it is a life that is more informed by art (inaudible 0:23:35.8).  Sometimes there is a small hole in Canada and sometimes I am there and I feel like I don't need to work because everything is free.  The food and the water and everything.  I still have to work a lot (inaudible0:24:00.9) and every time I have to work now I try to keep in mind that I have to enjoy myself and have fun. (Inaudible 0:24:11.5) you get into social if you work for an (expletive 0:24:23.8) or you work for a pig then you start to have different ways of (inaudible 0:24:34 smiling when you work is (inaudible 0:24:36.6) and sort of vengeance trip or tried to hijack situations where material or resources and then you can become more of an activist almost.  So it is not about liberation it is about freedom.  It attacks institution but it doesn't want to dismantle it.  We just want to be used to the max and use all are capacities because the collective started because people felt that they were not being totally recognized for what they can do the best in their job.  They're just being asked to do the minimal.  It's like people taking over in starting to do things for themselves is a good way to scratch the economy.

[Scott]: We are looking right now.   I'm not sure who did this, but someone who transports artwork.  Who takes the art work out periodically and just sort of sets them up on the side of the road and takes photographs.  Let me just send this link to the people who are not here in our room.

[Greg]: Yeah, it's called "Truck" by (inaudible 0:26:33.0) is what I read.

[Scott]: that's not really a question I guess.  Would you tell us a little bit about this?  Or is this self explanatory?

[Domenic]: No, no it's one of the nice projects that we have encountered.  The guys have been doing it for a long time before we have started the collective.  He had not stopped doing it but he had shown the pictures (inaudible 0:27:12.7).  It is a bit illegal to do things like that.  But he did basically he stole famous paintings for a few minutes and then he exhibited them (inaudible 0:27:37.0).  So that's what he did.  He took pictures of the situation of the famous paintings in various situations.

[Greg]: yeah.  I posted a PDF from your website.  I don't know if that is the same person, Scott, but you were refer into but at least in the PDF he is referred to as X.

[Scott]: Yeah.  That is what I was referring to.  I am just trying to get a good sense of…  There is so much material here that when I try to browse the web site I was really having a hard time plucking out and (inaudible 0:28:28.9) examples because I am not, we'll like you said, there are 300 to 400 people involved.  There are a lot of projects Dom, er, Bob.  And I'm only familiar with some of them that I have seen in remember and I'm not easily able to locate them.  So we are just kind of browsing a little bit and I kind of stopped on one, probably for too long now, that I remembered (laughing) and found to be very interesting.  Would you mind telling us some other stories?

[Domenic]: Yeah I can tell you many stories.  If Steven right there?

[Scott]: yep, Steven did get online.

[Steven]: Hey Domenic, I'm here. Yeah.

[Domenic]: I'm alright.  You tell the story about the magazine translation.

[Steven]: Sure, yeah.  I guess I can contribute.  I guess I'm sort of an At Worker in my professional time that is.  As some of you know, I work as a translator.  That is kind of my working day job.  In translating for a specialized art magazine the stuff I'm called upon to translate those and always deserve to exist in one language let alone be translated into a second or third language.  So that leads to a certain amount of cynicism and my workplace.  And I was asked by a very famous, or distinguished, French art magazine called Art Press to translate the text by an author whose name I will not mention right now and the collective group of artists whose names I will also not mention.  And I adopted a particular protocol for that translation.  I would systematically invert all of the adjectives into the opposite.  So if the author wrote that if he was very good I would say that he was very bad.  If he said that the sky was blue, I would say that it was cloudy.  If he said that the text was written by Karl Marx and I would say was written by Groucho Marx and so on.

(Laughter)

 So, I translated the (inaudible 0:31:25.5) using this protocol.  But I did a good job on it so it read and sounded really professional.  And since you know that in contemporary art you can basically write one thing and mean exactly the opposite, I wanted to test that certain intuity.  So I sent it into the editor and he changed a couple colons and semi colons here and there and gave it his stamp. (Inaudible 0:31:53.1) and article was published and of course the translation is published with the original.  I sent in my bill and they sent me a check for my work while thanking me very much for my translation.  And it appeared that everyone was pretty satisfied.

[Scott]: Steven, did they even notice?

[Steven]:  No.  They never noticed.  The thing is that the only person that would actually compare the two texts is someone like me, a professional translator who is looking for professional references about how you would (inaudible 0:32:34.1).  Most people would either read it in English or in French.  But if you read in English of course it said the opposite of what it said in French but it was equally implied.  It was not more or less implausible that it was written in the original language.  So that is one of the exhibits and the At Work hall of fame.

(Laughing)

[Steven]: Did you already talk about the (inaudible 0:33:09.3)?  It's really a pretty interesting document.  It's not available somewhere on YouTube or (inaudible 0:33:12.6) or something?

[Domenic]: No, not for now.  I just finished it last week.  The French and English versions.  I've been working on it all this time and it will be sent to you all if you want if you send me your address.  It is obviously a Copyleft so you can make copies and public presentations and put on the web if you please.

[Scott]: Domenic, is that information on the datasheet that you sent me earlier today?

[Domenic]: Yes it is about that thing.

[Scott]: Okay.

(Loud background noises)

[Steven]: I asked Enrique to join up tonight but I guess he hasn't called in yet.  But his contributions to At Work have been pretty interesting.  Maybe you would like to comment on those as well.  There are a pretty singular kind of practice.

[Domenic]: Yes and I think he is still working on it.  It's been a really long project.

[Steven]: Can you say a few words about what it is?  That project?

[Domenic]: Yes.  What it is as an extra for movies.  Like a Hollywood fashion movie producing in Quebec.  He was hired as an extra and he decided that while they asked him to pretend to talk (inaudible 0:35:09.2) because they take the (inaudible 0:35:13.7) of the main characters only and what the clock run in many film productions and they start to say the same lines every time (inaudible 0:35:28.3).  So every job he had was on different sets.  And then after he would dub his voice over and reconstitute the whole text as he has been hiding in major productions, many millions of dollars of TV productions.  So what he does now is (inaudible 0:36:05.2) small clips that he has been performing the text is about the society and a spectacle of the criticism.   (inaudible 0:36:23.5) for him is a nice poetic presents into our big set designed and being in the background as this continuous line and use it in the final edit of all those parents clips.  I don't know if I told it well but maybe Steven will have more to say about it.

[Steven]: I think that you don't wanna make it too clear about exactly what he does.  Basically it's pretty obvious what he does.  He takes advantage of being on a film set to use those moments of spectacle time as the site of visibility for his practice, which is not what they had in mind. The interesting thing about At Work if the incredible variety of workplaces that can be used as sites for artistic exhibition, a residency and production.

[Scott]: Hey guys, are you still there?

[Domenic]: Yes.

[Scott]: Oh, great.  Let me pass this mic over.  Okay, super cool.  It does have a pretty long cable.

[Ryan]: H, my name is Ryan.  How do you respond…?  Can you hear me?

[Domenic]: Yes.

[Ryan]: Okay.  How do you respond to the common criticism? As you said on some of your things up there such as "slacking at work" or "why wouldn't you do this as an artist after work" or" stop doing this at work and be an artist."  You know, I mean I kind of get it but, goofing off at work in putting a fancy name on it?  I mean, I'm totally into it and I do it myself but then you get fired.  So how do you respond to that common criticism that I'm sure you always get?

[Domenic]: What I will answer is more of like a personal answer because when I decided to start this project is because I was out of money and I found the stupidest job I could find and I got bored really quickly.  Even though I knew I could do better than that there was no other opportunity for me and I needed the money.  So instead of just getting depressed I started to slack on the job.  I realize that my freedom and being a good worker somehow says so much about how doing what is asked of you and doing it so well that you have 80% of your time free to do whatever you want with their computer and their phone line.  All the culture, all the situations and all the resources.  It's more about finding a studio and being like a double worker.  You can use the words slacking at work, I would say that it's more of a (inaudible 0:40:32.2) activity.

(Male group member]: In our current economy, people have started to change ever to flex time.  You know, working for days a week and things like that.  So what they're proposing now, and what you were saying, is work harder and then have more time to do work.  Is that kind of what you were saying too? (Laughing) is there a way to work with and an employer on this?  Like, I'm going to do my work really well and you give me a day off.

[Domenic]: Yeah, you can take it like this.  Me, the situation I was in was that I was under estimated.  I could do so much more and they were asking me to do such stupid things that it wasn't not hard at all to do it.  And so I completed the tasks really fast and then after word I had free time.  It's not about becoming a better worker.  It's about making yourself at home somehow.  And instead of running at 24% of your power than you decide to go at 100% then the bonus is not for the boss, it's for you.  Most people don't like their job and if they work really slow and they are being sloppy then time doesn't go fast so much.  When you were, time goes fast.  If you ask any students (inaudible 0:42:29.0) and security to be an adult (inaudible 0:42:29.9 - 0:43:08.1).

[Ryan]: So it's not like…

[Domenic]:  ...to work more or to get more (inaudible0:43:16.6).

[Ryan]: So it's not so much as putting one over on your boss as kind of pushing yourself to do something at work that is for you as well.  Kind of?  

[Domenic]: Uh huh.

[Scott]: Yeah, I was curious about that personally.

[Steven]: I think it is this also.  The bosses (inaudible 0:43:48.2) take second place.  They don't disappear.  And so it's not about sabotaging the workplace.  It's not about deliberately try and undermined the logic of capital accumulation.  It is simply saying that's not the important thing.  So it becomes the secondary kind of logic and the primary logic, of course, is the realization and using the means of production and the space which the boss has so kindly made available.

[Scott]: Steven, how would you describe this in terms of...?  I understand Ryan's question, I think, in terms of immaterial labor and the drive.  Ultimately, the changing face of economic, well…  The changing the way that employees are being encouraged to spend their free time at work.  It has become a viable business strategy.  It's hard not to think of Google plex.  It's hard not to think of, not mandatory, but almost mandatory or strongly encouraged free time.  A lot of "progressive businesses" are and have been for quite awhile now, it and by have been I mean probably for the last five years and the US anyway, and my understanding is this is the case in Europe too.  Something fueled by organizational studies.  Yes.  Exactly. Neomanagement.  It's a viable management strategy, and economically viable that strategy that is encouraged in everything from day care to really wonderful sounding things.  Like the very best meals to be found are to be found on these large almost corporate campuses as they are sometimes called.  Even and not very large businesses, it's just that it's harder for smaller businesses to pull it off.  And the ones that can really try to encourage the workers to sort of live and breathe and be at work.  Be the company in a way.  And I guess I was curious what you thought about this Steven.  And also curious about what you think about that, Bob since you have spent so much time thinking about this and working this way.  I'm sort of piggybacking a little bit on what Ryan was asking.  I guess I'm trying to stimulate the conversation a little bit in that direction.  I know this is a critical practice. But I'm curious.  On one hand, I think there is a real generosity, in a way, a very non judgmental point of view.  Really is saying that people are in the world, there are economic issues, and people are working constantly as part of the way we live.  And so there's something about this project that incorporates art in the everyday.  Not necessarily that everyday trash on the street or some of the other things that sometimes artists do when they talk about the everyday, but literally what people do every day and go to that (expletive 0:47:09.2) job and work.  I think there's something really, I wouldn't say honest, but something very sobering about it.  But I was just kind of curious about conceptually what you thought about those other points.  Does that make sense?  Does my question make sense?  Or the way I sort of flushed out the question was asked before me?

[Steven]: Yeah, it makes sense.  Theoretically art can take place in any workplace.  In any workplace where there is a surplus of produced by viable labor that is being recuperated by capital.  Those are the conditions in which At Work can take place.  But generally speaking, At Work (phone ringing - inaudible 0:48:06.4) based on (inaudible 0:48:08.2) and precarious labor conditions.  In other words, in jobs where you have no particular future.  It doesn't take place in the jobs where you were being totally fulfilled and stimulated and you really loved what you're doing.  It takes place in these (expletive 0:48:30.9) that you have to do in order to get by and to fund our artistic or other immaterial practices that we can't fund on our own.  And so it's not about spending your free time at work, it is taking that time you were at work and not using it for what the boss says to use it for.  In other words, to repurpose your labor time, that time you are (inaudible 0:49:02.3) to waste in the workplace and instead of wasting it you repurpose it towards what we call art practice (inaudible 0:49:09.1).  That doesn't have any specific substance or content, it could be anything provided that it is not devoted to the extracting of surplus value for the employer. Does that kind of (inaudible 0:49:30.0)?

(Background comments)

[Steven]: Well surplus value is the term which is used and Marxist analysis to describe what capitalism is.  Capitalism exists because our workers who are producing more value than what they are being paid.  So where does that extra surplus go?  It goes to the accumulation of capital.  It goes to the employer and not to the employee who actually produced it.  And that surplus value is what makes capitalism function.  So basically At Work coming from that kind of an analysis is there shouldn't be any more surplus value produced.  You should go to work just so you don't get fired up that surplus values should be devoted towards the production of some variation of art.

[Chris]: I was thinking about when I was younger and I use the work and a shelter workshop situation and there were people in there and I was doing things like listening to the radio there and stuff.  And they would have these songs they are.  And these mindless people were doing the same thing over and over no matter how bright you were.  The station played love songs and were the same songs every single day.  And I would do things like have this male character sing the songs in a dress and make lists in my head of the love songs that would never get played on that station.  So I was thinking that maybe that was an example of what you were talking about?

[Steven]: Domenic, I will let you comment on that.

(Laughter)

[Domenic]: I don't know.  I don't know if I understood exactly what the story was about.  If you were bored at work and you had ideas that had nothing to do with your work (inaudible 0:52:13.8) you were on the right track.

[Chris]: Yeah, I think something like that.  I was in the situation where there were people of various mental capabilities and because they had these disabilities they were being put in there and the lowest common denominator.  We had everything from college educated people to people that could barely function.  And they were just being put in there and this whole thing being and this, I hate to say the term, work for retarded people.  I hate to say it that way.  So that was the way I kept my sanity.

[Scott]: Are guys enjoying listening to the Kung fu above us?

[Ryan]: it's awesome.

[Scott]: Yeah.  It helps to fill the void.

[Steven]: Domenic and you told me recently that some of the more recent members of At Work are strippers from California.

[Domenic]: Are what?

(Laughter)

[Steven]: You said you had been contacted by some people, some sex workers.  Some dancers from California.  What's the story?

[Domenic]: She's working on different projects but its not super clear.  One girl in particular, she  works as a sex worker and like peep shows and stuff like that.  She has inverted mirrors  that are normally to, let’s say, see her.  And she can turn around and see people and  makes revealing images and things like that.  She records conversations all she does  blow jobs in cars and she is doing some kind of diary.  And she is a performance artist as  well, I mean outside of this job.  She is using most of that (inaudible 0:56:10.9) to do a  video based project and a video installation.  She is taking lots of risks doing so she is  under a pseudonym.

[Scott]:  I mean there's a tradition...

[Steven]: (Inaudible 0:56:39.7) or is she working for (inaudible 0:56:39.9)

[Domenic]:  She works for a specific peep show and she also does contracts.

[Michael]:  Hi there, this is Michael at BaseKamp.  I came a little late to the conversation but it's interesting this idea of play or this experimentation that can also take place beyond the workplace, which is in like the domestic sphere.  I wonder if it has served as inspiration for anyone to move beyond work with this sort of play.  If that makes any sense.

[Laughter]

[Steven]:  Sir, can you please repeat that question?  I didn't understand the question.

[Scott]:  Oh yeah.  Did you want to try repeating it or do you want me to paraphrase what you were saying?  Okay, well mine is going to be much shorter.  I think Michael was asking if any of the people who are making art at work ever take it beyond work and into play.  Is that accurate?

[Michael]:  I'm curious about other spheres beyond work.  Such as the domestic sphere.  In this case there is definitely a blurring in terms of sex workers.  So, I don't know if that makes sense.

[Scott]:  Yeah.  So the question is if Domenic or anyone has thoughts about that.

[Steven]: (Inaudible 0:59:03.9 - speaking in French).

[Domenic]: (Inaudible 0:59:04.7 - speaking in French)

[Steven]: (Inaudible 0:59:12.5 - speaking in French)

[Domenic]: Um, okay so sorry.  I needed a little translation in order to answer the question.  I remember when we traveled in Southeast Asia, especially in Thailand and there was this thing called (inaudible 0:59:54.5) and it means that you work you cannot be too serious and if you lose your temper then people start to laugh at you.  You should have no reason to stress and smile and take it easy and then you enjoy yourself with your friends and you do work.  It cannot work if there is not (inaudible 1:00:19.4) and to me working is really hard to define sometimes what is work and what is not work.  Like for example, right now what am I doing with you guys?  Am I working?  Shall I use this situation of working if I consider it work (inaudible 1:00:44.0) or the use of clips or excerpts in my next movie and maybe I'm using this context right now to do something that is more constrictive for me in terms of film making because I like to make films.  Here's a really good chance tonight to record ideas and (inaudible1:01:17.1) the data movies so it would be using clips of what was said tonight.  And then when I go to bed tonight I don't feel like we were talking about the same thing again and again and again but that I took something out of the situation that is going to help me in my project.  So, it's not really working but still it's like (inaudible 1:01:46.8 1:02:10.7).

[Scott]: So there is a parallel discussion going on, Domenic, in text.  And I think this was already addressed but I think that this is probably a pretty important point because some of the ranges of examples of alternative or alternate or plausible artworlds that we’ve been looking at this year span a continuum, I don't know if it really is a continuum or if it's just jumping a all over the place to different strategies.  But ultimately, there was at the very least people who are oppositional.  Some examples of artworlds... The reason I asked about successions earlier was because that happens to be one fairly extreme way of being directly oppositional is, or at least to ultimately throw it out completely.  Throw out what you dislike or don't find to be in line with their values or interests.  You know, there more sort of violent oppositions.  And then there are people that are perfectly happy to keep coexisting with other structures that they may not necessarily be so fond of.  This might be beating a dead horse because I feel like you've already answered that. And Steven sort of clarified it a few times that At Work isn't exactly  set up to try to bring down any system but is there to kind of find ways to make it useful for you.  For each person.  If they have to do it anyway.  I think it just might be good to just clarify this stuff a little bit.  Some of the things that are being discussed in some Marxist terms and Neomarxist terms or (inaudible 1:04:26.3) there's definitely a lot of neomarxist language around the worker and surplus.  I know a Marxist strategy is to find the hidden surplus and that can be a way to subvert but it can also be a way to exceed.  I guess I was just kind of curious, I didn't want to make this discussion more boring, but because there was a lot of this being discussed in text I was curious if you guys wanted to just talk a little bit about it out loud.

[Steven]: Since I am kind of responsible for the surplus value (inaudible 1:05:08.4).  The objective is to reappropriate the surplus value (inaudible 1:05:34.2 - 1:05:45.2).  It doesn't have that kind of a Marxism, if fact it sort of cancels (inaudible 1:05:51.9 - 1:06:34.7) to do fun stuff.  In other words to engage in the extension called self realization.  It's kind of saying I wouldn't go to work.  I would collect welfare. I would steal money (inaudible 1:06:54.3 - 1:07:31.6)

[Domenic]:  If I can add just one thing it is that the job system is this fear.  You go by the fear so much to lose that job (inaudible 1:07:49.61:07:54.9).  If you look at all the projects in At Work then you start to feel more easy going about the things in your job because this person did that and didn't get caught and this person did that and didn't get caught (inaudible 1:08:11.0).  In this way it's possible to bring down the system, the fear system.  Like (inaudible 1:08:22.9).  To me it's never to feel that working (inaudible 1:08:39.6 - 115:38).  You want to go to work to free you.  You just want to exercise freedom you don't want to exercise to work.  You take the freedom for yourself.

(Loud background noises)

[Greg]:   This is Greg.  It's interesting that sort of the perspective which Steven and Domenic are bringing in which to me, they seem outside of the United States, for instance.  Because I'm thinking specifically of this whole healthcare reform issue and often times, at least it has been the case in my personal experience, that you get a job so that you can get health insurance.  And I think that idea that perhaps this healthcare reform gets passed and that’s no longer a connection, that is, healthcare through work, I wonder if they will be more opportunities to be at work and being producing.   Being creative and producing at work.  I don't know.  Just a current event that's happening that I thought of.

[Domenic]:  I think about how to, let’s call it a crisis like before getting jobs that they don't really want but they have to take them to be able to (inaudible 1:11:20.7)  And if they don't know what they want from themselves I'm sorry for them.  If you can't appreciate your job or find something you want for yourself then you ought to look for something  else maybe with less pay but then (inaudible 1:11:49.9).

[Female group member]:  What do you think about, in the creative world, projects that are excessively long?  Projects that have a built in time period.  For example, three years for a project that could really be done in one month.  How do you deal with that kind of a pyridine?  Because it is in the creative world.

[Domenic]:  I'm sorry.  I didn't get that last part.

[Female group member]:  Well, I'm saying that the pyridine, that time, the excessive pyridine.  You know, creating all of this work to make art which it doesn't really need.  All of that time to make a good piece of work. I meant in the opera worlds so I'm talking about operatic projects.  So how would you respond to something like that?  In other words, it is a creative project so if somebody in Au Travail were involved with that project, even though it's artistic, they would still do their own productive work as soon as they realize that it was just a waste of time in investing all of that time to make a piece of art that doesn't need that much.  Is that the idea?

[Domenic]:  I don't know.  This is becoming personal to, the collective  becomes really (inaudible 1:13:51.0) and there are many individuals that consider (inaudible 1:13:53.2) and we all have different visions of what art should be or what is meaningful or how much time we should spend on a piece.  It depends so the collective has no position on (inaudible 1:14:15.0).

[Female group member]: Yeah.

(Laughter)

[Female group member]:  I was just going to follow up on that.  Just maybe the scale and the lengths of the projects that you are working on At Work would tend to be shorter in my assumption.  I don't know if that's necessarily the case and whether you've observed or discussed any interest in making any changes or just adjusting that component of the lengths of the projects.  Or if that's a discussion that you have at all.  Does that make sense?

[Domenic]: (Inaudible 1:15:23.5).

[Domenic]: um, (inaudible 1:15:24.1).

[Female group member]: Okay, well, I...

[Domenic]: (inaudible 1:15:28.3) I think I don't get what you (inaudible 1:15:31.0).

[Female group member]:  Yeah.  I guess it's a kind of two part question.  The first part is so the format of the projects being at work does that influence the scale of the projects or the work themselves?  Scale in terms of time?

[Domenic]: I don't know how to answer this question.  I am sorry. (Inaudible 1:16:09.0) To me what is interesting is that shortest stories are often the best and the most comprehensive stories are the most (inaudible 1:16:24.8).

[Female group member]: Yeah.

[Domenic]:  I like it when it's really up in your face.

[Female group member]: Uh huh.

[Domenic]:  It's hard to say (inaudible 1:16:33.8 - 1:16:41.7) once he was a truck driver and he decided to create the artist truck for on the streets and the highway.  And he was stopped in traffic in Mexico and the (inaudible 1:16:57.0) and he made his first art piece. It was a real creative way of using his job.  In a sense it was mostly (1:17:25.7) project and he became an artist (inaudible 1:17:25.9).

[Female group member]:  No, thank you.  I think that it's interesting to talk about the stories I guess.

[Domenic]: Yes like short stories (inaudible 1:17:43.0) because people like to recall them, like jokes.

[Scott]: Adam, do you want to ask your question out loud?  I think it's a pretty good one to bring up.  Or would you rather someone just sort of read it out for you?

[Adam]:  Did I un-mute it?

[Scott]: You did! Hi Adam.

[Adam]:  Okay, yeah. The question I was asking was related to how value might get transferred into artworld value.  I know a couple shows have been done relating to this and I was trying to figure out that what if it was (inaudible 1:18:48.8).  I would imagine that doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just showing art work. But, I wonder how many of these people making that work do translate that value into artworld value of some sort so that it becomes as if excess value is really stolen or taken from the work job and translated into some sort of artworld value whether it be credibility for teaching job instead of this terrible office job, or just credibility just within the artworld as it has its own value system.

(Laughing)

(Inaudible background comment)

[Scott]: Is it a...

[Steven]: Domenic, do y you want to answer that?

[Domenic]: Again the collective when it first started was a bit about fighting depression.  And of course in the beginning we were really have attention from the artworld and it was a way to find the (inaudible 1:20:00.6) for our days.  It was nice to be coming out as a worker because we were typically known as artists that were not talking about so much, we pay the bills and we earn our money and I think it's a (inaudible 1:20:26.5).  It was funny to come out as workers and say "yeah, I do like this (expletive 1:20:34.3) job."  And for awhile all kinds of people would come to me and say (inaudible 1:20:38.1) so it was sort of funny things to do coming out.  Some delivery, or more generally those others are now going out on their own because the collective has no platform anymore.  To still do At Work is okay but they follow more into the normal art system.  I don't have much opinion on that.  But the types that I like the most more often are often illegal.  So people have to remain anonymous and protect them from being exposed too much to the art world because it covers up as much as (inaudible 1:21:52.4).  I like this kind of disposition of being productive.  A happy worker and a happy artist at the same time because you don't get all the regular attention that an artist gets

[Adam]:  I think it might already relate to what position you take on artists as workers, just as a big discussion topic.  But if your an artist as a worker and let’s say teaching art and doing this crappy job, and you're either working on your syllabus or working on your art work at work I have this question on if you're actually taking time off from where you actually triple work and you are providing more value.  I think that's what the question means.  I don't think it's answerable, but I do wonder about the position of artists as workers and whether you're doing just a very, what I would consider, a very American thing, which is doubling up on your work hours and how is that different from running a business at the same time that you're working this crappy job?

[Domenic]: People choose as they do.

[Steven]: Yeah, I'm thinking about that question.  I'm thinking about whether it's doubling up.  It strikes me that the examples (inaudible 1:23:33.1) either negates that it's similar to doing crossword puzzles or do doing a small business or your wage labor job.  Because this stuff really is different.  With conceptual art, while being paid to do something else while doing crossword puzzles to pass the time.  Unless, of course, doing crossword puzzles is your art production.  It is kind of a, it's more than a Plausible Artworld.  It's a totally implausible artworld, but it's one that really exists on a surprisingly large scale.

[Domenic]: Also, it would be wrong to take an art production as a...  It's just about being in a good disposition to think about things.  And to take pictures at your workplace would only take one second but you can think about it for weeks and what you are going to do with it.  So, it's not so much about sweat but about just opposing two or three activities and making them work together instead of like thinking triple.  It's more using your brain and (inaudible 1:25:24.1) is not more energy consuming.  It's just about being wise and if you want something, take it.

[Chris]:  I was thinking about this movie I saw where these people were working at a restaurant and they were talking about ways to rob the restaurant and I heard that this movie was from people that would actually sit down when they were working at this restaurant and think ways to rob it.  I thought that would be a good example.  I hope.  I was also thinking about when I was working and had the guy in the dress and doing all these things.  And I was doing peace work and every time I finished all these things, that was him recording a song and I got paid by that.

(Inaudible background comments)

[Female group member]:  Excuse me, could someone or everyone give me their definition of what art is?  What is art? What makes something art?

[Scott]:  I think that is very similar to what Randall was asking.  Don't you think Randall?  Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth.  You were again and again throughout the conversation, once you came into it, kind of teasing at that.  Sort of saying is there an implication that the "artwork" is more valuable than other kinds of work or some sorts of experiences.  Do you think I'm right about that at all?

(Inaudible background comment)

Well, I don't know.  Steven, isn't art whatever a particular group of people, enough people to support the making of the art and the understanding of what makes something art?

[Steven]:  Yes, of course.

[Scott]:  I'm just sort of building on what you said I guess.

[Steven]: Yeah. No, I didn't say that art was the artist says it is.  It's what it understands itself to be. I mean, I'm thinking about (inaudible 1:28:50.6) that means there has to be an aggregate.  It has to be a community basically.  A life sustaining environment that is prepared to go along with that understanding.  The thing to point out about At Work is that it has its value neutral in terms of what it considers art to be.  I mean you can think a painting is really (expletive 1:29:17.8) but someone who uses their McDonalds night watch person job to do abstract painting, they qualify as an At Worker, of course.  So it's not only the most farfetched (inaudible 1:29:33.2).  It's whatever.  It combines a life sustaining environment to what art understands itself to be.

[Scott]:  I was actually... It's my ignorance because after looking at this Wikipedia article about Annabelle Lopez, that seems like we probably would have run across but just have not for some reason or another.  And when you were describing this person that was parking a tractor trailer at 90 degrees on the highway and blocking traffic, it was immediately appealing to me.  I found it really interesting.  It did not, however, seem like a success story that this person "went on to become a famous artist" or well known for this kind of work.  It didn't necessarily detract from that in my mind, but it didn't help it.  I think I was mostly interested in how interested that person was and what kinds of effects that could have.  Beyond just generally being a nuisance.  I also think it's just something you don't see every day.

(Inaudible background chatters)

[Scott]: Oh, okay.  That's one thing I'm a little more familiar with but I still wasn't familiar with the truck and the 90 degree parking.  In any case, I wasn't... Thanks Steph.  I think my point was basically the same.  Alternately that the activity itself seemed really compelling and the fact that it may be legitimized by a larger Artworld is not necessarily a plus for me.  I'm not actually sure where I'm going with this (laughing).  I guess my point is that's not necessarily, we're not necessarily talking about things that understand as art.  Excuse me, I understood as art.

 It just got really loud in the year.  Can you still hear me?  

 And that is sort of some of what we're discussing earlier.  Steven says that art is what it understands itself to be.  And Randle was saying kind of raising an eyebrow to the privileging in of art in that way.  I think what we're really talking about is creative practice.  Some people feel very comfortable just going ahead and not having to over qualify what they mean by art.  They are talking about creative practice generally speaking.  And I think yet others had a much more complicated view on that.  And others avoid the word art all together.  Some very good friends of mine, and I also take issue about sometimes.

[Domenic]: I try not to think only in terms of art production because it is fun to see if the At Work collective has a bit of a reputation for something that could happen bigger.  You think a movie about a robbery and you see they (inaudible 1:33:45.8) and all together we can make the product of a perfect robbery.  And then the actress has this personal project while doing their (expletive 1:34:01.0) jobs but they know that the bigger subject is to crack the bank and (inaudible 1:34:08.9) places and the economy will all be in place.  At one point we go "poof" and they are all in the right positions to organize their crime.  I like to think of the collective in the future as if we would be so many we would only need to have ideas and say " okay we need someone who has access to this kind of computer" and another one gets a paper and the other one gets two trucks and we can make our project for free and it could be producing (inaudible1:34:47.5) more like cultural evidence like as any music show.  You often see that in the cinema industry people will work for (expletive 1:35:03.2) films and (expletive 1:35:05.5) productions and then at night they will use the equipment they are supposed to take care of to shoot their own independent movies.  And to do that as teams and all help each other and share skills.  Their only a team, there's nobody else involved and it is just for the sake of it.  And that is what I could call art today.  It's one of those things that happened outside of the economy system.  And one that involves worker skills

[Steven]: Excellent (inaudible 1:35:48.6).  I totally agree.

[Scott]: Well guys, we're getting close to our 8:00 PM limit.  We're not there yet but I just wanted to ask if anybody had anything that was plaguing the back of their mind and wanted to bring up before we get too close and have to cut off.

(Inaudible background comment)

[Female group member]: I was just thinking about Leonard Bernstein in a comment he made and the Norton lectures that he gave at Harvard and he was saying that in art we have a universal language.  And so it speaks to the emotions through this universal language.  What do you think of that idea?

[Domenic]: Maybe that's why At Workers get along together all over the world because they understand what they're doing.  They understand their actions.  To me, art is just the way of saying that something in my life isn't…  There is no art project I can read (inaudible 1:37:04.7).  That's what I call art is what actions are, activity, not quite except things as they are and invent new ones.  I think there are many definitions and they'll go along together.

[Steven]: Randall, if I understand your objections correctly, you were saying that, how should I put it?  Let me think a minute.  It's really late at night and am having a little bit of a brain freeze.  I want to address the question you raised, just give me one second.

(Typing and background noise)

[Domenic]: Well, Steph, can you (inaudible 1:39:42.0) question?  If upper class artists were really clear about this and I have to say that it's surprising how people (inaudible 1:40:03.0) the collective easily when they are upper class or the class or lower class.  It's frightening to see people who want to commit to the collective.  Certainly working class or upper class.

(Typing and background noise)

[Scott]: Yeah, Randall, I hope I'm not breaking the silence of thought at all.  Yet, in the case of the jackknifed tractor trailer or the 90°tractor trailer, sure.  I think you were right about that.  Actually, are we still on the audio?  Oh, it sounds like we are.

 Hello?  Can anyone hear us?  Yes, I guess so.  I hear typing.  Okay, super.

 So Steven, I was just kind of curious if you are still formulating your question or not.  I am curious about that because, I wasn't sure…

[Steven]: I think Randall has to go, so I will keep my question for future correspondence.

[Scott]: (laughing) Okay.  Cool. Awesome.  Fair enough.  Well actually, we're actually T-30 seconds or something till our normal close out.  It's really great to have you Bob the Builder, and everybody who joined us.  Thank you very much.

(Applause from the group)

[Scott]: Yep, it was really fascinating.

[Steven]: Thanks a lot Domenic.

[Domenic]: You're welcome.

[Steven]: Actually, I think Eric (inaudible 1:43:24.7) this just tried to call if we want to have a final testimony from Eric.  I think now is the moment.

[Scott]: Well, if anybody wants to stick around for a few moments we definitely can.  I don't know, here's a question.  Do you guys want to stick around for another 5 minutes or so? Yeah? Okay.  On our side it's all good.  We just tried and so that no one feels the burnout.  But that sounds perfect although we are in Eastern Standard Time and other people are on different time zones so if anybody needs to get out don't feel shy.  Can someone data Eric to this chat?  Awesome.

 Steven, are you able to add Eric?

[Steven]: Uh, hang on.  Oh he's going to call you.

[Eric]: Hola! Sorry to be late.

(Laughter)

[Steven]: Well, two more minutes.

[Scott]: I think its four more minutes for us.  Nice to hear from you Eric.  How are you?

[Eric]: I'm fine.

[Scott]: Excellent.

[Steven]: Listen, were you just at work and that's why you were late?  At work doing art?

[Eric]: Exactly.

(Laughter)

[Steven]: So fill us in.

[Eric]: Well actually, I am in a real art center so it's not real work.

(Laughter)

[Steven]: Well, we try to talk about what you do as an art worker before but maybe you would like to give us a self description.  I'm sure it would be more accurate.

[Eric]: Basically I work as an extra on movie sets.  They asked me to pretend I'm talking with other people as like the background performer.  And basically the stars are in the front of the camera and I'm in the background which furniture or props.  This is what extras are.  So I have to pretend I'm talking with people like would sign language and say specific things (inaudible1:46:16.4) coded messages of a secret agent and TV transmission.  I used to do that on cable TV shows and cable movies but also in some Hollywood movies because there have been a lot of Hollywood movies that have been made right here.  I always use the same effects in the background that you can read on my lips and I do some gestures which are from sign language (inaudible 1:46:52.5).  And at the end of it I can construct the whole sequence which is basically a (inaudible 1:47:03.1) theater that I just put it there but I just choose to really because of it can another career of many things.  Among the things can be (inaudible 1:47:18.5) and industry of cinema and TV and must be entertained.  So it's (inaudible 1:47:26.3) and it is inspired by a scene of the Old Testament.  So I've been doing it for five years.  Every time I have to go there which is possibly two or three times a week I am doing now all day long.  Always the same thing and always the same text.  And sometimes some of these are visible on TV or on film or on DVDs.  I collect also DVDs.

[Scott]: Eric, what is your favorite Trojan horse excerpt that you've inserted a film or television show?

[Eric]: You mean the best one?

[Scott]: I just asked what your favorite was, yeah to you.  The best one to you.  What you liked the most.

[Eric]: Do you mean a mime the ones where I did that right?

[Scott]: Yeah.  Exactly.

[Eric]: Will there are a lot of them that are probably unknown to you because they're probably Quebec films.

[Scott]: I was curious about how you felt though.  Not so much something that I might be able to see immediately.  But, you know.

[Eric]: I have a special way of (inaudible 1:48:50.8) higher if it is a Hollywood movie right?  So probably, I don't know which one.  I know that I appear but I'm not there in the film about Bob Dylan but you only see my nose and my lips in a really close shot.  And then this other…  I'd really have to check about it because I really don't watch them (laughing).  So I collect all the movies and then I think eventually I will spend a couple of months tracking myself in these movies but for now I don't have time to do that.  Because they are actually movies I would enjoy to watch, I don't watch them (laughing).  The action of (inaudible 1:49:34.0) on a daily basis.

[Scott]: I would definitely watch them.  I really like cheesy, oh I don't know, what am I trying to say here?  Cheesy.  Basically Hollywood cheesy films or formulaic TV shows.  As long as we know what to look for I probably would spend a little bit of time pitching in.

[Eric]: I tried to tell you, I know I am and this (inaudible 1:50:15.7) movie like (inaudible1:50:16.9) but I didn't watch it so maybe I'm invisible because there was a lot of videotape or film.  They really like to spend money.  It's really their biggest fun to spend money for no reason.  A lot of the time I am there it is because they're like to spend money, they don't keep the shots.  Maybe because I'm terrible.

(Laughter)

[Scott]: Because you're talking about something.  Or what kinds of things to talk about?  Actually, I'm going over our time limit here.  But just out of complete curiosity real quick, do you recite poetry, do you make up stories or…?

[Eric]: Well, this is what I told you earlier.  It's always the same excerpt from (inaudible 1:51:03.8) a classic in French literature.

[Scott]: Oh, I see.  I totally missed that.

[Eric]: it's based on the Old Testament and ends this scene; I think it's a nightmare, where she sees her mother.  She's from a Jewish family and she sees her mother right before she died and she's then gorgeous and even looks younger than what she is.  So its (inaudible 1:51:42.9) it's not really about hallucination but also about beauty.  I'm just trying to translate the text into my head.  And then she suddenly sees as she is a cadaver and there are dogs eating her bones and suddenly there are beautiful children who appears to her and look so attractive and a tractor and seduces her.  But at the very last minute of the dream, you take a knife and stab her.  And I think this is a perfect story about history of cinema and (inaudible 1:52:24.1) for the last 30 years.

(Laughter)

 Expressly the Hollywood cinema in a certain way.  I mean it's certainly gory, you can be reading it in many ways.  The scene is really about something that's actually read about a kind of anger of a sense of cinema and the disappearance of the apparitions were all mixed up together in the same environments.  So this text about (inaudible 1:53:01.2) is just perfect about that.  So it's really kind of connected with (inaudible 1:53:05.6) and is part of the text (inaudible 1:53:13.1).

[Steph]:  Hi.  I just wanted to say that repeating it in the background endlessly is also perfect.

(Laughter)

(Inaudible background comments)

[Scott]: Well Eric, thank you very much.  I really feel that as exciting as it could continue to be we really should go.

[Eric]: (inaudible 1:53:45.8)

[Scott]: There are a lot of films.  You could always visit to be an extra here in Philadelphia.

[Eric]: (inaudible 1:53:58.9) to help me find a job.

[Scott]: Yeah well.  We have a job board here now.

[Eric]: Let's keep in touch.

[Scott]: Excellent.

[Eric]: So we have greetings from (inaudible 1:54:09.6) where everybody greets you here.

[Scott]: Awesome!  Will hello from us.  OK, we'll have a great night or early morning everybody and we will see you next Tuesday.

[Eric]: (Inaudible - speaking in French 1:54:39.2)

[Steven]: (Inaudible - speaking in French 1:54:39.1)

[Domenic]: just a reminder for anyone who wants to copy of the film data to send me your address to (inaudible 1:54:57.9).  Just send me an address I will send you a DVD.

[Scott]: Great Domenic.  And if you want, we can help you put that online since you want to open source so that everybody can get much faster, if you want.

[Domenic]: Of course.

[Scott]: Cool, yeah.  We'll talk about it tomorrow.

(Group chatter and goodbyes)

END OF TRANSCRIPTION

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