Chat History with basekamp/$113716b79e57cf5e" title="#basekamp/$113716b79e57cf5e">n.e.w.s. paid usership http://basekamp.com/about/events/news-paid-usership (#basekamp/$113716b79e57cf5e)

Created on 2010-03-30 20:37:12.

2010-03-27

2010-03-29

2010-03-30

BASEKAMP team: 18:03:21

Hi everyone

magdalenatc: 18:03:31

hello

stephen wright: 18:03:38

hey hey hey

BASEKAMP team: 18:03:50

Hi Stephen & Renée

reneeridgway: 18:03:52

hi

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:06

magda, Patrick , Jason, Kimgrac , mabel

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:21

>

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:52

i know it's rather late for you guys - -- would you mind starting in just a few mins though?

reneeridgway: 18:05:01

yes

reneeridgway: 18:05:09

where's Prays

Jason Sendaula: 18:05:10

howdy

BASEKAMP team: 18:05:11

this must be a big surprise for you, but we're still setting up here

stephen wright: 18:05:22

he's gone offline

stephen wright: 18:05:43

maybe perriferry sank

BASEKAMP team: 18:05:46

                                                                       

stephen wright: 18:05:56

hope not

stephen wright: 18:06:13

maybe the gangplank broke

stephen wright: 18:06:18

more likely

BASEKAMP team: 18:06:57

how are you this evening?

Jason Sendaula: 18:07:19

rainy

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:23

Stephen, can you turn your skype status on, - otherwise - when it's time, we won't be ablle to call you on conf call

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:34

VERY rainy here too

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:49

& deceivingly chilly

magdalenatc: 18:08:06

blowing here quite a gale

magdalenatc: 18:08:22

but cousy with the fire

stephen wright: 18:09:54

my skype status is on.

BASEKAMP team: 18:14:25

so it is!

stephen wright: 18:14:46

so let 'er rip

BASEKAMP team: 18:15:01

word! --- but -- just another minute on voice....

BASEKAMP team: 18:15:16

'pologies for the timing. We are here & almost ready to chat with you fine folks

BASEKAMP team: 18:17:04

stephen I'm going to call you for a quick sound check

stephen wright: 18:18:40

Found a good quote from Jacques Rancière by the way, very much in the spirit of Plausible Artworlds: "se mettre ensemble suppose de réussir à donner confiance à la mise en commun [des] capacités dispersées […], c’est-à-dire créer une forme de rassemblement où tous ceux qui mettent en œuvre une capacité propre [de lutte] puissent avoir confiance en l’extension de cette capacité » (Et tant pis pour les gens fatigués – Entretiens, éd. Amsterdam, 2009, p. 673).

BASEKAMP team: 18:19:41

ok guys, does everyone want to be on the audio call who's here now?

BASEKAMP team: 18:19:46

asuming yes?

magdalenatc: 18:20:10

yes please

Jason Sendaula: 18:20:42

<ss type="wink"></ss>

BASEKAMP team: 18:21:45

btw, people are asking to be added to the chat now, so doing that

stephen wright: 18:22:22

"coming together supposes being able to trust the sharing of dispersed capacities... that is, to creating a form of gathering where all those who implement the capacity they contribute can trust in how that capacity is shared." dixit Rancière, in Too bad for tired people.

BASEKAMP team: 18:23:44

ok everyone - calling now

BASEKAMP team: 18:29:21

we're looking at http://basekamp.com/about/events/news-paid-usership now

BASEKAMP team: 18:31:07

n.e.w.s. by the way is for North East West South

Greg Scranton: 18:32:29

the semantic web...?

Greg Scranton: 18:35:48

e.g.-crowd sourcing

Greg Scranton: 18:37:54

I like it. But how is what you are doing different than the narketing & tourism board for phila paying cool hip kids to keep a blog on their site in hope of attracting more $$$pending cool cats to move here?

catodextrina: 18:39:46

I think it differs by making content *with* meaning, not just a hipster blog.

BASEKAMP team: 18:39:48

catodextrina - do u wanna b added to the chat?

stephen wright: 18:40:00

sorry I got cut... please reconnect me

BASEKAMP team: 18:40:05

oh, you are here?

catodextrina: 18:40:07

User-made content that is to be payed shouldhave analysis value

John W. Pattenden-Fail: 18:40:08

hi everyone, i'm a latecomer with no idea what's going on

Greg Scranton: 18:40:22

I see. So then primarily based on content.

BASEKAMP team: 18:41:10

re-conecting!

catodextrina: 18:42:42

(sorry if i don't answer) currently at my job and i can only reply by text

stephen wright: 18:43:02

To answer your question greg: well it's not different in terms of remuneration, but in intent: their's is calculated, ours is egalitarian; their's is based on ensuring value, ours is on ensuring fairness in the acknowledgment and remuneration of those who produce value

Greg Scranton: 18:43:05

yes

Greg Scranton: 18:43:47

thank you Stephen

BASEKAMP team: 18:45:58

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Beautiful Russian ladies - http://dreams-lady.com/

.

BASEKAMP team: 18:46:03

yes, we just got this

BASEKAMP team: 18:46:23

                                                                                                                                                               

Greg Scranton: 18:46:53

this also, from my perspective, seems to be more of a conceptual/poetic gesture rather than an approach to change how usership currently exists online.  Or do you see NEWS as a forum aimed at proposing "real" change?  Or perhaps both?

BASEKAMP team: 18:48:39

"it's a counter-intuitive proposal, but I don't think it's a revolutionary one"

BASEKAMP team: 18:49:03

"this is opposing a *certain type* of capital accumulation, but isn't opposed to capital on the whole"

stephen wright: 18:53:28

it is a conceptual gesture, greg, and a poetic one. but it is also hopefully an exemplary one -- in that it is an example of how and why value should be paid for. And thus, like any gesture, potentially a way for real change.

Greg Scranton: 18:55:32

yes, right Stephen. Intriguing.

magdalenatc: 18:56:48

It is tricky to separate the two the capital value from symbolic value in the system that we live in.  so my question would be: do you consider an artistic or economic one (though I guess this question might be a paradox in itself, considering the first statement) Is it a provocation or is it trying to address the issues of sustainability of the community? And how would you define that community?

Aharon: 18:57:02

payment is a conflation of value - e.g. if I pay for something it might seem as if I value it, but its more of a contract..

Greg Scranton: 18:57:37

Well even Marx embraced capitalism as a way in which communism could then be implemented globally...alienated laborers globally make for a global "revolution".

magdalenatc: 18:57:43

i mean do you consider your project to be artistic or economic,

Greg Scranton: 18:58:00

I would guess both

magdalenatc: 18:58:30

i would guess so too....

magdalenatc: 19:00:01

would you consider this a kind of investement? the kinds of contribution and remuneration that follows or is negotiated.

catodextrina: 19:00:49

Is it utopian to pay for user-made content? Meaning, I can see someone paying for a photograph or extensive profesionally written text... it's normal under my profession. But in the internet its blown to a proportion where you can't really edit. restrict or conduct inaproppriate content.

Aharon: 19:01:59

hence if u get to control desire - u control capital..

Aharon: 19:02:11

well.. if not control - getting to have a say..

John W. Pattenden-Fail: 19:02:12

i'm off to sleep - this sounds like a great session and i'm sorry i missed most of it

John W. Pattenden-Fail: 19:02:14

see you all in the future

BASEKAMP team: 19:02:25

nighty night John

BASEKAMP team: 19:02:42

                                                           

BASEKAMP team: 19:03:36

 

Aharon: 19:03:43

what is the difference between user payment at NEWS and payments for viewing ads etc. ?

BASEKAMP team: 19:05:02

Is it utopian to pay for user-made content? Meaning, I can see someone paying for a photograph or extensive profesionally written text... it's normal under my profession. But in the internet its blown to a proportion where you can't really edit. restrict or conduct inaproppriate content.

BASEKAMP team: 19:05:22

^^ from catodextrina

Aharon: 19:05:43

it seems like you beleuve capital can be distributed fairly..?

magdalenatc: 19:06:21

when one becomes a user and not a contributor?

BASEKAMP team: 19:06:23

Aharon, -- well, i think Prayas anyway said it can never be eaually distributed -

Aharon: 19:07:00

yup. but it looks like there is an attempt to get some sort of fairness

magdalenatc: 19:07:06

when one does become, etc. sorry the question stucture etc..

Greg Scranton: 19:07:10

so then there is no system at all in which you are evaluating participation? It's purely subjective?

stephen wright: 19:08:28

We don't believe in the equitable distribution of capital -- we need to contest capital. But we think that it could be less obscenely distributed.

Greg Scranton: 19:09:06

or what they should be paid for

Aharon: 19:09:48

why do you think of payment as an expression/function off value>?

Greg Scranton: 19:09:49

makes me think of a sort of shareware model

Greg Scranton: 19:10:37

blood money

magdalenatc: 19:10:42

can you say what is the wealth that you think might be re-distributable and in what way? i understand one of the ways would be 'less obscene way of redestributing - can you expand on that?

Greg Scranton: 19:10:57

wel...isn't all money "blood" money?

stephen wright: 19:10:57

lost me again -- sorry

stephen wright: 19:11:06

please call back

BASEKAMP team: 19:11:13

callinggggggggggggg

BASEKAMP team: 19:11:23

stephen wright: 19:11:28

Yes, it's like a kind of shareware model

stephen wright: 19:12:59

important idea: network surplus value

Greg Scranton: 19:13:12

cultural capital rather than "wealth"

Greg Scranton: 19:14:18

kinda reminds me of RTMark mutual funds in a way as well

Aharon: 19:15:37

good point - greg

BASEKAMP team: 19:15:49

needs a drink    

Greg Scranton: 19:16:04

thx Aharon - how are you btw? seems like it's been a while. hope ur good.

Greg Scranton: 19:16:53

would this be a more general argument in favor of something like tenure then? (knowing you guys are in academia)

Aharon: 19:17:25

renee - can u elaborate about the text from the 70's you get re women and not renumerated labour?

Greg Scranton: 19:18:20

value

Aharon: 19:20:14

again stephen - "collective value" you seem to relate money capital with value.. i wonder why exactly given the fact that the price of X is a function of social contract/construct..?

Greg Scranton: 19:21:23

that never change hands per se

stephen wright: 19:22:12

collective value is not reducible to monetary capital

Aharon: 19:26:11

i keep wondering why is it that we talk about payments - when payments are the means of exchange for the poor? i think it is interesting to note that once you get to posses a certain amount of capital, the exchage you are likely to engage with your fellow "class mates", will be attention and trust - and these on their own.. (e.g. not mediated via direct capital/money)

Aharon: 19:26:35

in a sense, the very rich - are the super radical..

stephen wright: 19:26:44

You mean rich people don't exchange money?

Aharon: 19:26:56

not among themselves

Aharon: 19:27:37

ie i do something for you on the understanding that you, one day, will reciprocate..

Aharon: 19:28:07

which is exactly what we see with this "credit crunch" period

stephen wright: 19:28:08

I thought that when rich people sold stocks, other rich people bought them

Greg Scranton: 19:28:39

gold farming

Aharon: 19:28:44

stocks are the business - sustaining sources of income is work

Greg Scranton: 19:29:12

so it's sounding a bit like you ARE the only game in town

BASEKAMP team: 19:29:38

i think this is very similar in form to artist-initiated micro-granting initiatives

BASEKAMP team: 19:29:45

there are lots of them

Greg Scranton: 19:29:47

google=capital boo!

Aharon: 19:29:57

paid readers will gain more results

Meg Frisch: 19:29:59

kickstarter-ish?

Greg Scranton: 19:33:22

again reminds me of an artists union

Aharon: 19:33:55

sorta paid readers: http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/

Aharon: 19:34:33

another example: http://www.waeagles.com/?q=node/59

Aharon: 19:35:28

marketing: http://www.utalkmarketing.com/pages/Article.aspx?ArticleID=15372&Title=P...

Meg Frisch: 19:35:29

paid "inchvestors" http://makeloveland.com/

Greg Scranton: 19:35:37

sal randolph

Meg Frisch: 19:35:37

micro-real estate

Aharon: 19:37:54

so u r talking about curating - u as curator - of contributors

magdalenatc: 19:38:01

this is a question from Ben via me (Ben is sitting here and listening in): The earliest expression of the NEWS format as cartographical (North, South, East, West) that I know is from De Quincey (1840s), when he imagines the medium of a national news, distributed by the Mailcoach, as a medium that affirms and generates the category of the nation.  Do you  think of news, in a mainstream or alternative format, as necessarily a community activity / medium?  Or do you think that the dissemination of political activity as an activity that has always been bound up in the commercialisiation of information about / the very constitution of politics?

Aharon: 19:38:23

who decides who will pay certain ppl? (chosen ppl..??)_

Greg Scranton: 19:38:47

it is a conceptual gesture, greg, and a poetic one. but it is also hopefully an exemplary one -- in that it is an example of how and why value should be paid for. And thus, like any gesture, potentially a way for real change.

Greg Scranton: 19:39:01

that was what stephen said earlier...

Aharon: 19:40:15

..if u equate payment with value, stephen

Aharon: 19:40:34

ben - are u talking about the political usage of news?

stephen wright: 19:40:34

I don't equate it, but I don't oppose payment to value either

BASEKAMP team: 19:40:49

http://www.waeagles.com/?q=node/59

Aharon: 19:41:23

why do u not oppose such payments?

stephen wright: 19:41:56

oh oh, cut off again (I'm in a hotel and they give me 30 min at a time) reconnect please

BASEKAMP team: 19:42:17

dag

BASEKAMP team: 19:42:23

calling u bak

stephen wright: 19:42:29

thanx

Aharon: 19:44:25

re mechanical turk and money: http://www.tenthousandcents.com/top.html

Greg Scranton: 19:45:18

but aren't we, the readers, seen as "consumers" and thus we owe the "author" for his/her knowledge (I don't agree with this but obviously is current paradigm)

BASEKAMP team: 19:45:23

sean still there?

magdalenatc: 19:45:43

Hi Aharon.  I'm asking about whether there has ever been a non- or a- political usage of 'news' -  whether the category of news has always been bound up with the 'visibility', or extension, of politics.

Aharon: 19:45:44

another mechanical turk reflection: http://www.thesheepmarket.com/

Greg Scranton: 19:45:57

hmm I have lots of lurkers in my classes then

Greg Scranton: 19:46:20

participation grade is BULLSHIT imo

Aharon: 19:46:56

your question becomes more interesting at each time u elaborate it..

Aharon: 19:47:03

(to ben)

magdalenatc: 19:47:37

Thanks Aharon, I'm coming in to this a bit late,s

BASEKAMP team: 19:47:38

"we should not only get paid for writting, or reading, - we should get paid for loitering

Aharon: 19:48:22

in a sense the visibility is political and invisibility can hardly be news - if it to remain invisible..

Aharon: 19:48:38

in a sense, lurking is the ultimate invisibility..?

Greg Scranton: 19:49:38

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ze907XEttTk/SWzOXSkfsVI/AAAAAAAAApo/5x8rq361zi...

Aharon: 19:49:55

hold on... google would not have all that money if it didn't have lurkers.. same cnn / abc / sky / name ur poison

Aharon: 19:51:30

what evidence do u have that egalitarian distribution is possible??

magdalenatc: 19:51:30

Sure, I've always felt that lurking is fine, rather than the implicit associations with the pervert that have always been there.  I was using the idea of visibility in reference Stephens's use of Ranciere, and thus the idea of regimes of visibility.  The current experience of politics is surely dependent on a regime of political visibility in which the 'press the primary agent.

stephen wright: 19:52:09

the overwhelming evidence that non egalitarian distribution is possible

Aharon: 19:52:45

this is like saying we can live without oxygen by the evidence that we do it all the time..

Aharon: 19:52:52

comeon stephen..

stephen wright: 19:53:46

we don't have evidence, Aharon. We don't need evidence. We don't have evidence that anything that is not, could be.

Aharon: 19:53:53

now u r trying to tie expression with payments..

Greg Scranton: 19:53:59

virtual puppy pile in homage to adam

Aharon: 19:54:48

right! however, we do do some assumptions - and I think such assumptions that are baseless, should be carefully questioned if they are to be taken seriously

BASEKAMP team: 19:54:56

paying w pajamas

Greg Scranton: 19:55:06

pot of gold...end of the rainbow

BASEKAMP team: 19:55:22

ESP

BASEKAMP team: 19:55:32

mashed potato mountains

Meg Frisch: 19:55:47

i would work for naps

BASEKAMP team: 19:55:48

           

BASEKAMP team: 19:56:06

                                                                               

BASEKAMP team: 19:56:19

 

Aharon: 19:56:30

i wonder what u mean, ben, by regime.. what really constitutes/makes a regime? can we for example, say art regime - rather than art world..?

BASEKAMP team: 19:57:00

Aharon: 19:57:46

yes stephen.. this is an old point re for example how ex art students even though they do not engage in "art" allow, viw the understanding through their education, provide "value" to certain artists..

Aharon: 19:58:05

this is NOT RADICAL ENOUGH!!!

BASEKAMP team: 19:58:29

even iF it looks like not participating at all, like loitering, and anti-citizen-ish non-behavoir

Aharon: 19:58:44

it still relies on capitalist tools.. it simply re-inforcing of the same conditions we oppose!

magdalenatc: 19:59:49

Just to respond to Aharon (before going to bed), with the term 'regime', I'm just picking up on Ranciere's essay / book on Politics & Aesthetics, with the 4 regimes of Art.  But the conversation#s over so maybe next time for further discussion...  Thanks and goodnight.

BASEKAMP team: 19:59:52

robbig peTer to pay pauline

Greg Scranton: 20:00:07

this was great thx so much Renee & Stephen!

Aharon: 20:00:44

nity nite !!

Jason Sendaula: 20:00:51

we can take turns

Jason Sendaula: 20:00:52

bye

tefpasquini" title="stefpasquini">Stefpasquini.com: 20:00:59

thank you everyone (sorry I didn't participate actively!)

stephen wright: 20:01:09

lurker

Greg Scranton: 20:01:36

nite nite all

tefpasquini" title="stefpasquini">Stefpasquini.com: 20:01:42

<ss type="wonder"></ss>

stephen wright: 20:01:48

see y'all next week

BASEKAMP team: 20:06:15

cya stephen!

BASEKAMP team: 20:06:34

BTW, we're proposing a Public School course on 'paid usership'

Jason Sendaula: 20:06:54

nice

BASEKAMP team: 20:16:21

http://philly.thepublicschool.org/class/2299

BASEKAMP team: 20:16:49

if interested, click "+ i'm interested"

BASEKAMP team: 20:17:05

this isn't too wel elaborated ATM