Week 19: Democratic Innovation

[Scott]: So Kent, welcome!  Thanks for coming to our weekly chat again.  

[Kent]: Yes I've been a bi disconnected maybe.  So yeah.  Its 12:00 in Denmark, sometimes it's hard to stay up.

[Scott]: Are you feeling awake?

[Ken]: (Laughing) I am feeling awake so there's no problem.

[Scott]: Great.

[Kent]: Depending how long this will take us (laughing).

[Scott]: We are going to drag this out for as long as possible.

[Ken]: Okay.

[Scott]: We will keep it just under 2 hours at the maximum.  And if you need to go sooner because you are tired just let us know.  Cool.  And so I'm not sure who else is out there.  Jessica and Adam, school has already ended correct?  Or do you guys have some like diehard students that are hanging on?  School is out.  Yeah (laughing) great.

Um, in any case we know pretty much everyone here.  Welcome everybody again two in other example in the series of Plausible Artworlds where we take a look at different examples of emergent or fledgling Artworlds, for lack of a better term.  Many of you know Democratic Innovation but some of you might not.  And so Kent, I was hoping that you could help everyone who was out there or listening to the recording later on get a sense of what democratic innovation is.  Ah hah!  I'm just reading some of the comments (laughing).  Maybe through how it got started.  I know democratic innovation is a project that grew out of Copenhagen 12 years ago and since then it's my understanding that that it has often worked with people in factories and in other kinds of situations.  Other corporate settings or other settings where people are working but not necessarily just as a ploy by the top level in the company but somehow you've convinced these various companies are factories to allow you and your collaborators to come in and work with the people that are working.  I think we're just really fascinated by this process and it would be nice to talk about some of these projects that you have been doing.

[Kent]: Yeah, what should I say?  Yes the project for the initiative started up as a trial to star of various conversations.  The startup, now it feels like way back, this was like at the end of the nineties and it was actually the first trial to get people across the south between Sweden and Denmark working together in a project that was addressing the (inaudible 0:03:43.8) development in Holbæk area. That is a Danish city just across from another city, a Swedish city.  And I created a project that kind of address the infrastructure in these (inaudible 0:04:04.6) city.  And it connected to a larger cultural program that looked at the same business development of the Holbæk development.  And the idea was that job situations and how to work in the area was changing to kind of a home based work so we felt that we should address this topic of the issue you somehow have to direct to the organizations and to the working life of these organizations.  The idea was somehow to get a dialogue of these conversations in the area.  I engaged several people more or less, some symbolic.  It was actually meant to work in kind of directive organizations that it became more or less symbolic and should to be very difficult in engaging the Swedish organizations.  It became kind of more symbolic on the notion of this kind of crossover project, the crossover between art and organizations.  So was kind of a test project and it happened and luckily that I came across some working life consultants in the Copenhagen area that we're interested in this idea of creativity and workplace and so forth.

So the next project they came, is this mentioned?  No.  Okay.  It was a project that was eventually called industry ambition.  And this project started up with a context that was kind of a test project (inaudible 0:06:29.7) actually.  So this (inaudible 0:06:34.6) became more realistic to enter organizations because I was keen on pursuing these ideas.  With the contacts of these working life consultants we eventually succeeded in the entering into different manufacturing companies and reaching the (inaudible 0:07:12.9) were the companies were situated kind of attached of this project is well.  Yeah.  So was kind of by the help of these consultants that succeeded the project (inaudible 0:07:32.4).  Often we had spent time to fundraise the project and to get all the preparations up.  I involved kind of colleagues and friends that I knew.  So it was kind of super flex, the group super flex and the video artist (inaudible 0:08:05.2) who took part in the project.  But the financing part was in the end of mainly, from money point of view like cash money, was supported by the Danish trade unions actually.  So was first of all not supported by a kind of art funding or by any other kind of cultural funding and on these premises we carried out and it kind of lost its idea, this project.  Kind of the whole project compared to corporations.  Yeah.  I probably shouldn't talk.  I will probably just regret (laughing).  Maybe I could answer some questions.  Maybe I could ask myself what probably could create interests in democratic innovation practices (laughing).

[Scott]:  Well I can definitely continue to ask questions and was anyone else had anything they wanted to say immediately or ask you to clarify

[Kent]: Yeah, certainly.

[Scott]: Okay, yeah well.  I think, I don't know, how you guys feel?  I think that one thing that could help is to focus on one of the projects.  Not necessarily in a hyper details but just kind of a little bit of detail and maybe tell us a little bit about what the experience of working with is the actual experience in the factory was like.  What they seem to get out of it and what the results were from your point of view.  It might help us to, almost like a story, it might help us to kind of put ourselves in your place.  Maybe help get the conversation about other questions related to it going.  

[Kent]: Okay.  Yeah.

[Scott]: I know there have been a number of projects.  You've done some…

[Kent]: Yeah, that I can say that this project that I've mentioned that was kind of carried out throughout one year at different corporations.  At this time in Denmark and there was an initiative from the administrator of trade and administer of culture and they came out with these reports on the potential for Denmark and the corporations that are working with the cultural sector.  And this project was prepared some years before with the kind of test project so was kind of by accident that this project (inaudible 0:11:36.7) was up when this report came out.  And we were kind of taken for how good or how bad it could be (laughing) when if someone carried out some of what the report was describing though they were not describing actually art projects as such it was more of kind of cultural projects and the cultural sector in industry and so forth.  Only a few projects were as an example for artists working in corporations.  This project in distribution for one example.  And I and the project and other business partners were kind of dragged into the discussion in the art field and, how can I say, the more cultural fields.  And from then on I have done projects not quite similar because I have found out it's very hard to establish these kind of the projects at factories with the workers.  So it's been kind of smaller projects that I have is well engaged myself in (inaudible 0:12:51.3) around these things.  Organizing (inaudible 0:12:56.5) workshops, hearings and worked with researchers on these issues.  That kind of stirs it all up.

[Scott]: Sorry, hey Kent?  A real quick question.  Just for all of us out here, do you have, are there any images from your website that you think would be good to go to kind of help a company?  I put some up on our page here, but I don't know if they're like appropriate at all to what you're talking about.  Or if they're just kind of generic.  Well, not generic.  Or if you think that these are in any way helpful to give people a sense of some of what was going on.

[Kent]: Yeah, two of these images are from these industry projects.  The top and the one that is second from the bottom.

[Scott]: Okay, yeah. We're looking at it now.

[Kent]: So yeah.  Kind of describing the more tangible results (inaudible 0:14:16.9) or the house that is in the factory space (inaudible 0:14:24.1).  And the more kind of process based part of the project.  These two images are from the same factory. The largest factory that we entered.  What we did was first of all to have some meetings with a group of factory workers that had signed up for the project.  Together with kind of a group coach, you could say, and a project manager.  So we kind of started off by actually kind of making a void for something to happen.  It was more or less by making the factory workers have input of what ideas they had or feelings they had about making these kinds of projects.  At the kind of second meeting we had a more extensive project where we tried out various tools or methods.  Kind of walking around the factory space and taking images and video of other employees and so forth.  And in the middle of this session, there was suddenly a lot of fuss going on because those that took part in the project had heard, by accident, that some of the employees should be laid off in the near future.  It was not actually the being laid off itself. Because I think that was not unusual, but people cannot be employed and then laid off frequently, but they were not informed of this.  And this started off this discussion on why we should actually talk together and they internally talked together.  SO the project became less circling around the internal communication and the kind of culture at the factory.  We started working with what kind of tools we could use and what tools should be alternative to the current tools at the time.  What kind of communicative methods should be used in the factory? And in the end, you could say that this is a kind of (inaudible 0:17:37.7) of this various process throughout almost a year, we came up with this radio station at the factory.  So they established this internal radio station and that should eventually somehow mix the more formal communication with informal communication.  So we can say that this gave, this was meant to give the factory workers more hands on for the communication itself, internal communication in the factory itself.  In the space, the factory organization.  Yeah.

[Scott]: Kent, how did that come about?  Just curious I was just kind of curious that information.  How did that information during come out during the project that you guys were working on there?

[Kent]: How it came out?  The information about the sacking?  

[Scott]: yeah.  Sacking the employees.

[Kent]: I actually don't know.  I think it was by rumors.  The thing was that we had the possibility to confront the project manager on the factory itself, not at the corporation but at the factory itself.  Kind of the human resource manager.  So we had the chance to confront this person and a factory worker (inaudible   0:19:27.5).  At that time we had kind of, more or less, informal communication in the group.  So it was more the case that the rumor was out there and it was able to confront someone responsible instantly.  I think it was more that we (inaudible 0:19:59.7) and not the source of information because it showed to be true.  So, yeah.

The thing is that the interests for the managerial party were about communication is well but it was more to somehow enhance the communication between these various (inaudible 0:20:46.2) production workers.  It was more like addressing more, how can I say, practical or more production related communications.  So this was kind of our, how can I say, ticket for entering conversations.  But we made it clear from the startup one week kind of negotiated this possibility of entering the organization that we are not obliged to do something specific even if they wanted it or not.  The negotiation of our, I'm looking for the word, kind of (inaudible 0:21:46.6) about was that if we were not free hands there was no reason for us to be there as artists.  In this sense we had the mandates to do whatever emerges from the project itself through the process.  So, yeah.  And of course this was possible because we had these working like consultants on our side that they trusted.  It was the artist group that was kind of gathered at that time that had the authority for the project.  Though we had some, I was, for the project and the factories kind of the art director even though I don't like the word.  So I had to confront sometimes the consultants when they tried by a habit to take on responsibility for management of the project itself.  I had to kind of make them to step back.  It was kind of funny in a sense.  And unusual for me of course.  To ask someone who by tradition some power and assistance to kind of step back because if they did not there was no reason for us to be there.

[Scott]: So that was a kind of negotiating position for you?  You guys were kind of like "well, you paid us to come and we came all this way and we're working with the company and if you fire these employees then we're going to leave".  Did that work at all?  I mean, I'm sure it was more nuance than that but...

[Kent]: yeah, in principle it worked.  The argument that we stated was that if we couldn't do what we set out to do when we initiated the project in those places there was no reason for us to be there.  So why stay?  And we were not paid by the factories.  We were paid by the trade union.  So in a sense we were not distracted by the paying of the corporations.

[Scott]: interesting.  So you guys sort of represented them in a sense.  Well, I have a question.

[Kent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]: Go ahead first.

[Kent]: we didn't represent anything or anyone other than ourselves.  There was no kind of anything attached (inaudible0:25:13.5) responsibility and obligation to carry on the project and this was exactly the argument.  If we carry on the project as an experiment or whenever then it should be us that were, you know in comparison with the consultants or management, that should be in charge of the project.  So that we could make something happen.  So was negotiated in a decision that enabled us to do something that we couldn't do otherwise.

[Scott]: all right you guys.  Don't let me take over this conversation (laughing).  But I just keep having questions.  You know, actually, someone did have a question earlier maybe we should just bookmark it until after this factory part because I know what this was from.  Greg was asking about the strategy blows (inaudible 0:26:06.1).  I just wanted to mention that as something that maybe we can talk about next after we talked about this particular factory project.

[Kent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]: but while we are on this, I guess I just wanted to ask you... You are an artist who didn't just come into conceptual art from a managerial background or anything.  You are somebody who has made, I know years and years ago you had made conceptual paintings and sort of monochrome paintings in the sort of distant past and sculptural objects and things like this.  And you find yourself, and I guess in over the last like decade or more, you've been doing these large negotiation projects.  How does that work for you as an artist?  Is that a relevant thing to ask?

[Kent]: Yeah.

[Scott]: (Laughing) because this is your, its not only your project, you working with other people.  But it's also part of what you do now.  You know, you work with , you know I guess you  work with (laughing)...Working with ideas of democracy and ideas of how we work and live and part of what you do is that you work with people now and you do still.   I was looking at these photographs and you guys are still making things in a sense but you're making it through a kind of process that has a new and different kind of meaning that what you were doing before when you were working as an artist.

[Kent]: yeah but I would not say that I was originally a painter.  I worked with the various media since art school.  And in art school I would paint that it was part of projects.  One example that was back when, I'm an old man (laughing), so this goes back to the mid eighties.  I was part of this project on a state prison working with the inmates on a project that was related to their situation.  So in this sense of worked with various medias all along.  And my interests and more formal and conceptual stuff partly, to be honest, the handicraft (laughing) and this was kind of (inaudible 0:28:40.3) maybe.  And partly, going towards minimalist things, it's because kind of the notion of minimalism for engaging the audience for something happening outside the frame.  Beyond the frame.  Having this kind of interaction with the audience in a kind of series and all these things.  So in this sense, the connection of the engagement thing is kind of what hosts these various and specific interests and details altogether.  Does this make sense?

[Scott]: Um, yeah.  To me it does.  Definitely.  You know, I sort of constantly curious about when there is someone who is sort of willingly takes on the role of negotiator and of large projects, someone who has been working as an artist.  I think, you know, sometimes I wonder just what... Do you ever feel like "what have I gotten myself into", you know (laughing).

[Kent]: Yeah, yeah.  For me it's rather distance than studio with being in front of your canvas and just being alone, you know (laughing).

[Scott]: Sure.

[Kent]: I like the interaction with other people.  But anyhow, now I find myself in front of the computer screen so it's just maybe trading the canvas for the screen (laughing).

[Scott]: (Laughing) right.

[Kent]: Paradoxical actually because of course there is a lot of, yeah, administration in doing this kind of project.

[Scott]: I know that in this email that went out there were some questions.  There were some pressing questions that were asked in this email that I think are tied really closely with what you do which is why it was an occasion to ask.  But maybe it would be worth bringing some of those up now.  And I guess I could just kind of throw some of those out.  I don't know if anyone else out there is kind of thinking some of these and have some burning questions because this isn't' really meant to be just a dialog between Kent and me.  It's just sort of turning out that way so far.  But, I don't know.  Maybe I'll just bring them up and perhaps we can kind of then about them over the next like half art or something.  And then maybe we could talk about another one of the projects like, for instance, Greg was asking about these balloons.  Maybe it would be a good idea to talk about the organizational arts summit.  But the questions that I'm referring to, by the way, just so you know what I'm talking about, ultimately, I'm really thinking about the ones at the end.  Whether it looks like you Democratic Innovation is seeking alternative models to managerial practices and I guess what this asks is can art practices contribute to the development of a critique of current neomanagement practices and organizing regimes and do participatory collaborative art practices merely mimic soft managerial tactics or do they have the potential to point the way to "democratic innovation"?  There's probably another way to ask that, but it seems pretty seined.  So I guess I just wanted to throw that out there while we were talking about all this stuff.  

[Kent]: Yeah.

[Scott]: I mean it could be a good time to address it now or later.  But, they seem like pretty large questions to me so... But they kind of cut to the heart of what you're doing I think.  

[Kent]: You know, first of all, working with different people in different fields and in talking about management or how to organize projects probably, how can I say, the idea that artists should be better managers (inaudible 0:34:14.1).  It probably is not the case.  You will probably find more back management in the art field then in the managerial field because they are trained for this.  Of course this is about ethics as well.  But, I don't know, for artists it's kind of more ethically then kind of people in general.  I don't know, I don't think so.  But the point for me or for this project rather because it should necessarily revolve around me, is more kind of the collaboration between groups that have various backgrounds and various experiences.  So teaming up with workers or employees or in some case managers and researchers is not so much trying to teach them anything.  It's more trying to work together with them to try to maybe come up with other ways.  I think this is kind of maybe both the idea from the startup to come up with the collaboration part and the learning as the democratic innovation carries on. Yeah.  But I think the critiquing, is of course is more around how you were organized and how one organizes stuff.  I think the aesthetics or the process of working with aesthetics could be forming parts of the critique of neomanagement practices (inaudible 0:36:32.5) kind of neoliberism.  Because of how this kind of affects (inaudible 0:36:46.2) human values and life itself in a more grand, in my words.  I don't know what you would say in English.  So it's more interesting the more other areas and how to generate knowledge.  So I think this is kind of more the issue.  I think that this element has been the case for art for many, many times which address other sides of the human knowledge.  I think this is very discarded in our times, more than before.  It surely still a problem.  We cannot sanction kind that this kind of knowledge is used an experience that is made by aesthetics.  I think this is kind of maybe the issue.  But if it were to be enforced in the industries, it would need some kind of collaboration (laughing) with other kind of like minded people within the industry or in the research area.  So teaming up with these people.

[Scott]: Aaron had a question.  Aaron, do you feel like asking this out loud or would you rather us just kind of read it out and address it?  I don't know if you even have a microphone there.

[Kent]: Aaron, you still have our microphone.

(Laughter)

[Kent]: Okay. Its okay (laughing).

[Scott]: Maybe he stepped away for a second.  But yeah, well it seem that Aaron is asking about the tension between I think what he is describing, I mean literally between what he is describing as just kind of...  Oh, oh I see.  Well, we'll just address it Aaron and you know, you can type in.  He is describing the democratic as something that is bottom up and organization as something that is structured and advanced and top down.  I think he just sees a tension there and was...I'm not even sure if it was a question (laughing).

[Kent]: If I understand correctly, it's a very good question actually.  The thing is that organization as such is not necessarily top down.  It depends on how you can be up to date on emerging processes.  So how you are dealing with what is going on now and how you actually tell the story afterwards.  You have this telling the story afterwards and is always the one who was winning the game, you know?  So if you're not necessarily keen on telling the winners story, you could tell the other story as well and not to be one winner.  This is kind of the idea of organizing another way that is not necessarily top down.  I think it's about being able to grasp what is going on in a situation.  It's probably something that I think by training and the specific field of aesthetics a something artists are more tuned into some help.  Not to say that everyone is very skilled and a social setting but I think that in dealing with aesthetics you probably…  This is for me, and I think for others as well.  It's hard to generalize.  Probably, I think that this is some part of working with aesthetics that are able to grasp details of something that is happening that you don't notice any usual frame of mind if you're not tuned into aesthetics maybe.  I don't know.  Does that make sense?

[Scott]: Well, hey Kent? Do the people stored in the factory think about this sort of thing you are sort of going for your process in working with them?  These issues are you guys talk about these issues or... I mean, I know you were saying that sometimes it's hard to know what's happened until after the fact, after a period of processing.   I was just curious about the people that are there.  Are they sort of subjects?  Do you know what I mean?  I know you sort of talk with them and treat them well, but I guess I was curious about the level of awareness of this stuff.

[Kent]: I understand.  Awareness.  Yeah, but we had discussions (inaudible 0:43:16.1) references to art history or all of these things.  But kind of issues that we talked about in our sort of fields were addressed for them and by them as well.  So, in the end there was a kind of (inaudible 0:43:42.6) it was kind of by interview and so forth.  Trying to find out what happened not long after but just after.  Statements were in the direction that some of the interviewed factory workers had kind of experienced this other way of working and kind of a positive side of it as well.  So they kind of found out that probably there was some other ways to do things in both kind of a practical sense but as well as how to go about group work and all these things.  So, these things we addressed specifically. Yeah.  So in a sense, yeah.  There was much talk about how to organize and how to communicate.  And this factory was kind of specifically addressed in how to communicate and which elements were kind of important.  The informal part of the communication to look at elements in the organization or in the organizing that are usually discarded.

If I talk in long sentences and people are logged off, it will probably be quite difficult to...

[Scott]: (Laughing) yeah, exactly Kent.  You have to keep the sentences shorter in case people get booted off of the audio again.  

[Kent]: So just a quick question.  Organizing?

[Scott]: (Laughing) well, did you want to talk about another example of a kind of practice that Democratic Innovations is involved in that doesn't with people like factories?  Like the, I was going to say for example, like the Organizational Arts Summit.  But, maybe it would be good to address what Aaron is asking because I think that has more to do with the factory stuff.  We can continue to go back to that too if anybody has any ideas or thoughts about it.

[Kent]: Yeah, if the organizations kind of continue the process?  Work on another project afterwards?  This of course is on a short time projects.  Short or long time depending on how to look at it.  This example that I mentioned before and that Scott addressed the industry (inaudible 0:47:12.4) was extended over a year.

[Scott]: is that the radio station Kent?  

[Kent]: Yeah, the radio station project.  Yeah.

[Scott]: Okay.

[Kent]: so if this carries on, the radio station was established as in the factory space as a prototype but to my knowledge (inaudible 0:47:47.4) is that they didn't implement it for a long period of time.  But I'm not sure if…  It would of course be interesting to see what would happen to if they enforced more informal communication or enforced more kind of sanctioned informal communication.  But I think that as with all other types of projects, exhibitions and so forth, it's more the impact of the experience.  It's not necessarily important that people will be a continuing of the project but that they will learn as much as we do.  Hopefully, they will carry this onto the next project or in their daily lives.  So I don't think that you should expect more of such projects than other types of projects.  However, I think you should expect more but I think it's more effective in a sense if you have direct contact.  It could be symbolic, but not as symbolic as just leaving posters on the gallery wall.

(Reading text question to himself - inaudible 0:49:41.4)

They are asking if the time element matters in my mind.  And you mean like, in my conscience?  Time matters because time goes by.  It is, in a sense, a project.  I consider this kind of like a time based media.  If projects morphed into one another, ideas too, this I think that projects fit more together.

[Scott]: yeah I can't.  I mean, for instance, you are part of a group in Copenhagen called TVTV.  It's not exactly the same as a radio station but you guys for a sort of a long period of time have been occupying a television station in the middle of Copenhagen right?

[Kent]: Yeah.  You can say that.  The radio station has two reasons I think.

[Scott]: Okay.

[Kent]: Many reasons.  First of all the media is more familiar to people who were or are working in this factory space.  So this is one thing.  Another is more of a mass medium so we can get in contact with the people at once although was covering a very small area.  I think total, this factory had 350 workers.  Of course, this kind of fluctuating between being a mass medium and direct contact…  Yeah.  For me that TV is interesting.  The TV is somehow the same because TV by tradition a collective production.  Art is not necessarily, not by tradition anyhow.  And then it addresses other groups and the already informed audience.  For me, more and more throughout the years.  Not particularly interested and the art topic or the arts audience.  It's not that I (inaudible 0:53:12.7) distribute art into the public.  The TV is not distributing art, you know, or mediating art to a broader audience it's more using TV as art medium.  TV tries to engage people, as well, in various ways both through the screen but also invites people to the production itself.  And a sense, it's kind of a prolonging of these elements that I have worked with before.

I can link.  Those are links to kind of current projects from this address.

Aaron go on.  Aaron was actually in Copenhagen a week ago exactly, Tuesday.  We made a project at TVTV together.  Yeah.  People could buy a mobile phone and e-mail and send and sound clips and in the studio was a live DJ that mixed these clips and found it's together.  And the idea thing was to make a somehow a collective produced jingle for the poor signal in TV at the same time.  We in the live studio made this enforced image as well.

[Scott]: Do you guys have links to that online somewhere?

[Kent]: Yes, there's some description at (inaudible 0:55:41.2) website.  There's a news section in the one website and so as far as I recall.  Following the address for TVTV, there is a link as well to this kind of current project.  And TVTV for me, it's as much of a production as it is the organizing part as well.  (Inaudible 0:56:37.2) been interested in how to organize these types of projects.  Yeah.  So for the question in the case of TVTV, I have been much involved in the organizing.  It's actually an association with a board and a sense of a democratic organization in itself.  But yeah.  If you remember, a board can be voted out and not being in charge anymore.  And this could be, I think, a bit scary for an artist to lose control over a project that he or she had initiated. But this is possible in the case of TVTV.

[Scott]: Yeah, do you think this is a good opportunity to tell us about the Organizational Art Summit at all and other projects like that where you work with a group of other people?  Specifically other people who you are on an equal footing with, like other artists for example.

[Kent]: Yeah.

[Scott]: I'm going to bring up the photograph of that balloon again.

[Kent]: Yeah, yeah.  It should, yeah.  I'm going to put the link up in the chat, yeah.  The balloon is kind of (inaudible 0:58:36.7) some kind of merchandise for the summit.  After the summit, actually.  So this summit was an initiative first of all from this research department at the Danish university of (inaudible 0:59:01.6) and they had this consortium called the creative lines that addressed sort of this series and distribution had addressed.  And because of this activity of democratic innovations I had come in contact with different researchers at this place and other places.  So I was asked to co-organize the summit that invited international artists.  Scott was invited too.  So you can correct me if I'm telling it wrong (laughing).  Artists were invited, curators, other researchers in this field of kind of cross discourse of artists, cultures and organizations.  A few business people as well and some consultants.  So what was the gold or kind of the topic of the summit was to find out what were actually happening with these types of (inaudible 1:00:43.1) or the fad of arts and business and cultural industry and organization and such things.  And artists organizing as well.  The setup of the summit was to get together with this group of various people from various subjects fields and to produce a book on the topic.  It was a four day summit and all of us were transported to this disclosed area in the northern island sea land, where Copenhagen is situated as well.

[Scott]: it was in this...

[Kent]: This old, former...barn I guess?  So we set off, kind of very ambitious, to produce a book in four days.  And I'm, sorry.  I'm not used all these happenings at the same time (laughing).  I'm really sorry.

[Scott]: Yeah, sorry about that.  We keep adding more people to the chat.

[Kent]: Yeah, I'm getting distracted.  Anyhow, sorry.  The thing for me, was actually how to do this collective production of a book.  The funny thing was it actually kind of happened by more or less being random.  Someone kind of took turns in organizing it because it's kind of initial researchers and myself stepped back and try to see what would happen.  So, in a sense, it was very interesting.  We didn't actually succeed in producing or publishing the book itself but the process kind of extended beyond the summit and we made this kind of documentation of the summit.

Sorry, I'm just typing.  This is kind of a documentation of the summit.

[Scott]: okay, we're going to pull that up now.  The saloon.  Sorry to confuse everyone with this.  The Sister Nancy link up there.  Okay.

[Kent]: So this goes back to like 2006, the summit.  There are groups and individuals that created texts.  You kind of have to push the colored figures and it will take you to the different texts and drafts for text.  The thing was, it was then collected on this page of this website and was then meant to be carried on or meant to be carried on Wiki where people are invited for kind of co-writing.

(Mumbling and typing)

And the balloon is like I said not any kind of merchandise.  It's both some of the sign, the sentence and text from the summit that is applicated on the balloon and is then used for informing about the summit itself and the field of work for these artists and the contributions from the artists and researchers and consultants.

[Scott]: Kent, wasn't the balloon part of launch of this book?

[Kent]: Yeah. So it's on several occasions been used for launching the book by me and by others that were part of the summit.  SO it was like everyone was offered a certain amount of balloons that they could use for launching the book or the sites.  And it hopefully continues work on this.

[Scott]: DO you still have any balloons?  I thought we were supposed to launch them here but I don't think we ever did.

[Kent]: No, I don't think so.  We obviously still have balloons left.

[Scott]: (Laughing) can you send a couple hundred balloons to us?

[Kent]: (Laughing) sure, sure.

[Scott]: Okay.

[Kent]: And, yeah. The last time I actually used it was at an event at Copenhagen (inaudible 1:08:41.7).  That's addressed to (inaudible 1:08:49.0).  And Copenhagen School is kind of a university.

[Scott]: So how did the really work out?  The Wiki and the website and everything for writing the book.  How do you feel it worked out?  I mean, in terms of... If you had it to do over again, would you help to organize it way for writing the book?  I mean, it seemed to take kind of a long time, huh?  But...

[Kent]: Yeah, yeah.  The process itself was interesting.  I can imagine doing kind of similar things.  I think that what was needed was actually a budget for producing the work.  It was a very small budget that went into the balloons.

[Scott]: do you think that we should…  You know that we are putting together a publication next year for Plausible Artworlds.  Do you think that it would be a good idea to organize it in a similar fashion?

[Kent]: I have ideas for trying it out once again.  I'd probably learn something the second time, more than the first time.  Yeah.

[Scott]: Oh, I see.  Steven was asking you to clarify what you were missing (laughing).  Do you see this?  Are you following this on the text (laughing)?

[Kent]: The summit itself did not put out a lot of material like text or graphs or signs and so forth.  The challenge was kind of too collect it after words.  And as often as you have a project and gather people from all around, and I do this to, you are experiencing energy.  So people start doing something else.  We manage to make what is at the website and hopefully…  What I had was a (inaudible 1:11:30.9) in a Wiki of the co-writing stuff because of other projects as well (inaudible 1:11:40.9).  But not in the sense of research (inaudible 1:11:47.9) should be continued and I would take it up again.  But the saloon is kind of an interpretation, and this is what is.  (Inaudible 1:12:07.2) on the saloon site.  But these texts will be, some of them are already, changed into other texts and some of them will probably be written out of the awaybook.org sites.  In the sense, in the end making it more coherent contributions to discourse. So money and stamina make it (inaudible 0:12:45.7).

[Scott]: Kent, I know it's getting quite late there.  Did anyone have other thoughts about, oh yeah?  So Steven is asking about the collective writing process and how you feel it worked?  I'm definitely interested in this selfishly because having been involved but also we've gone through this process with this particular project a couple of times and you've been involved.  And so now we're sort of entering a new phase so it's kind good to be self reflective here for a moment.

[Kent]: Yeah.  The process at the summit I think worked quite well.  We probably needed more time because of the more loose organized processes.  I think that if someone had stepped in and taken the lead that it probably would have been possible to a coherent draft for a book for publication.  But I think, then it would be another book.  So in this sense, we could have prolonged the project may be two days if we had the time and resources.  So the writing at the summit I think was functioning very well.  The images that you can find at the saloon summit site is something that is created more or less with the idea of the drafts and images that were come up with at the summit.  So was pretty much wind up for publication afterwards, or doing the publication afterwards.

[Scott]: Kent, this might be worth addressing.  Basically, I'm thinking that Greg's last... (Laughing) nice Theresa, definitely.  It's just getting it done sometimes, definitely.  But Greg asked just about the tools.  I actually don't think it's a dull question.  This probably would be a really interesting point.  Yeah, did you see this one yet?  Did you use paper and a pen?  Email?  Google Docs? Wiki? Etc.  And Steven was just asking about your experience in the work place, as I happen to know that some of the tools we used at the summit were experimental or organizational tools.  Experimental design processes.  Both processes and objects and literally tools that you and other people put together that I know have also been used in the workplace.  But they were kind of used on us or used altogether.  Some of the images on that webpage that we put together show that one projection table that you put together and there were a number of other devices that I could help describe or you might want to describe.  Yeah, would you like to just mention that a little bit?  Because it also leads from your earlier question from your work as a conceptual artist who was even entering into the realm of minimalist painting and using other kinds of media.  You had sort of evolved this interactive table that was once a painting and sort of an interesting projection tool.

[Kent]: I think that the experimental table, the first time I actually set up for the exhibition for (inaudible 1:17:05.2) project.  The exhibition was not kind of the project process but somehow a way of back feeding kind of public debates on this area.  So, any sense, it was established (inaudible 1:17:32.1) and I had used it before and more of this exhibition type situations but I hadn't gotten it to work yet.  The table.  Though this was kind of the basic of the ideas of what happened at the planning sessions.  So it was kind of carried on in this way at the planning sessions, if you recall.

[Scott]: I definitely do.  I mean, do you mind if I described it a little bit for second?  Just real quick.  So I sent this image and basically, just tell me if I'm wrong about this and I will try to be super fast because of the time.  It's kind of a large glossy monochromatic painting with a big white area in the center and you use dry erase markers of different colors.  And each color has this kind of special unit that you stick it in that has a different kind of audio frequency.  There are two pickups connected to the table like a guitar.  An X and a Y access and as you draw with each of these colors with these different frequencies, this software program picks up what you're putting down and throws it up on the wall projection style.  And also records it like a movie so you literally get this movie of this brainstorming session. Anyway, I thought that might help people to know what they're looking at.

[Kent]: Yeah.  Thank you.  Actually, it's a very ordinary kind of white board that you would use in the business field actually (laughing).  This was from years ago and it probably works better now.  Anyway kind of this thing at the museum in connection with the industry project was ambition.  I didn't expect it to work like a collaborative tool at that time, there was more kind of a (inaudible 1:20:02.8) in the sense of someone outside of the museum putting something up on the wall at the museum.  So as we had entered the industry or the factories as artists, everyone could actually access (Audio feed lost 1:20:23.6).

(Silence 1:20:23.6 - 1:21:50.9)

[Chris]: You mean to tell me that... Oh, okay.

(Background noise and chatter)

[Chris]: That machine can tell what color that is?  That they're using?

(Background noise and chatter)

[Scott]: Kent? Are you back now?  Is everybody back?

[Kent]: Yeah.  I just found out I was gone.  Sorry.

[Scott]: Hey Kent, the audio sounds terrible now.  Can you hear us okay? Hmmm.  You're volume sounds super, super low.  We don't want to like get into a tech support thing but if we could at least hear one another.  Can you try saying something again?

[Kent]: (inaudible 1:23:42.5) my mobile.

[Scott]: Oh you're on your mobile.  Okay.  Yeah, the audio was definitely much better before. Should I try?  Oh, let's try calling him back.

[Scott]: Hey everyone.  Greg just offered to host the audio.  It might be the case that sometimes the signal drops in and out around here.  And he's offsite so maybe we should go ahead and let him do that.  I'm going to hang up now so I guess you'll all be getting a call from Greg.  Everyone just go ahead and pick up and I think it'll be a lot clearer.

[Greg]: Hey Scott? Should I log in as BaseKamp?

[Scott]: No, you don't have to do that.  You can just go ahead and click the call button at the top of the screen.

[Greg]: Okay.

[Scott]: If you can.

[Greg]: I'll give it a shot.

[Scott]: Okay, great.  See ya in a second

(Silence 1:25:08.0 - 1:25:29.1)

[Scott]: Better?

[Greg]: I think so.

[Scott]: Oh, its better except for Kent's not there.  Can you add Kent manually or do you have him in your list?

[Greg]: Um, no I don't.

[Scott]: I may be able to help do that.

[Greg]: Okay.  Maybe you can add him.  

[Scott]: Nope.

[Greg]: Okay, I'm adding Kent right now.

[Scott]: Okay.

(Greg talking to himself out loud as he adds Kent to Skype)

[Scott]: So is Kent hosting a different call to himself at the same time?  Hey Kent, maybe you can (laughing).  We're getting cross calling.  It's like Ghostbusters.  Something bad might happen if we keep doing this.

[Greg]: Um, okay.  I have to call everybody back together.  For some reason, I can't add him as a...oh wait.  Let me try this, hold on.

[Scott]: Actually, everyone on Kent's call.  Kent would you mind just hanging up the other call?

[Greg]: I'm trying him now.

[Scott]: Okay.

[Greg]: There we go.

[Kent]: Okay, sorry.

[Scott]: Cool.  Great.

[Kent]: This girl and I talked quite a lot and I sort of forgot (laughing).  But I did really like it.  Where did...

[Scott]: I know that Chris here had a question.  By the way Greg, I'll send you, never mind.

(Greg talking in background regarding adding people to Skype)

Okay, now that we're back on.  That was a good five minute intermission.  Chris had a question for you, Kent.  

[Chris]: The thing with the pickups.  That can tell the color of those things?  Of the markers and stuff?

[Kent]: Yeah, it's like single colored pens has its own (inaudible 1:28:09.2) so it kind of picks up which pen will be used.

[Chris]: Wow.  Cool. Cool.

[Kent]: Yeah, it's kind of (inaudible 1:28:27.1).  But, Scott's description of the guitar like functions is probably very saying.

[Scott]: oh cool.  So at the organizational arts summit there were other devices used as well.

[Kent]: yeah there was a cornucopia of devices (laughing).

[Scott]: processes as well and other…

[Kent]: yes, processes as well.  It was a mixture of tested methods and methods that came out through the summit.  I think one that was kind of interesting in itself was (inaudible 1:29:34.3) came up with this idea too metaphorically conceived it as a factory space (laughing) so that the groups that were working on various topics, as they were divided into topics or theme, was working on sort of small production groups.  And this sort of kicked off a lot of inner energy somehow.  It was kind of the other way around for arts in industry and industry in arts.  There were tubes, like metaphorical tubes, using this process of putting up post it notes and clustering a into various topics that were interrelated and creating groups from these kind of clusters and so forth.

[Scott]: Yeah, there were other things like, well I mean personally, I found that the factory metaphor really helpful because essentially we all kind of snapped into different roles within a factory and really got an incredible amount of work done.  I mean, for a conference where often like, what was it like a four day conference and like half of the days half of the people probably didn't sleep and we were drinking for the other half, we were actually really hyper productive.  Even though the actual results of it took a few years to go through and deal with.  But I think a lot came out of that.  And also, there were other things like Alchemy, he's a magician.  Or at least he describes himself that way.  And was sort of making use of some of his work to help along.  We also had this really large conference table that was...

[Kent]: Yeah! That's right!

[Scott]: And Steven, you know access locale. And for those of you who don't know.  It's a large table that has a set up kind of like a UN meeting where everyone has one of these kinds of things that's in front of me.  A dial with twelve stops on it and everyone has a microphone and everyone has headphones.  And each person can switch the dial and that determines who they're listening too.  But you can't actually determine who you're talking too, which has a very perplexing and jarring effect because at any given moment you could be talking to no one and what you're saying is just kind of going into the ether.  And in a moment everyone might be listening to you.  And you can also continue to switch back and forth.  Yeah, yeah.  Exactly what Steven is saying (laughing).  It's even more random than using Skype.  It's way random.  It's just ridiculously.  You get slices of what people are saying but what comes out of it is a disruptive tool where ideas emerge that no one had coming into it.  It's pretty interesting.  In a way, I feel like such a chump saying this because this is what businesses talk about.  Its like "oh this is what artists are good for.  They come in and they sort of help us think outside the box and keep us on our toes." But what really did happen in this particular case is that we weren't just stepping into a role, we were helping to develop new meanings, like I guess what Steven is saying right now.

[Kent]: It creates understandings.  Not only the kind of caught up methods.

[Steven]: Steven here. It's a little bit like my experience sometimes with Plausible Artworlds potlucks because sometimes the sound is really great sometimes for a few minutes or few seconds and then it cut out and so I am imagining what must have been said while I wasn't able to hear anything.  And so it's a total projection for my part and then when I get back in on the conversation 5 minutes later on, we are on to something else.  I'll never really know what happened but there is that kind of a breach like an opening where meaning somehow wells up.  It's random.  It's quite interesting and that sense.

[Kent]: in the sense of allowing something that is probably not sanctioned otherwise to kind of emerge.  No one knows what happened except that something just pops up.  I lost every one. No?

[Chris]: It's like we had to fill in the gaps.

[Kent]: Exactly.

[Scott]: Kent, well we're really looking forward to having you come back to Philadelphia to work on a project here.

[Kent]: thanks.  I will look forward to this as well.  Sure, yeah.  Let's see what can happen.

[Scott]: Yeah maybe we can work with some other local people to help set up some kind of a project that is not just a "gallery space project" but something that could involve other people locally.

[Kent]: (inaudible 1:35:49.1) sure.  Yeah.

[Scott]: Yay!  Thanks Theresa (laughing).

[Kent]: Thanks (laughing).

[Scott]: yeah, Theresa is also a local organizer.

[Kent]: okay, cool.  

[Scott]: indeed.

[Kent]: (inaudible 1:36:06.9) was in Philly.

[Steven]: Kent, you have a pretty broad definition of what a factory is, right?  Like the factory isn't just a place with smokestacks and you know cogs wheels and stuff.  I mean a factory is like a, I don't know sometimes I'm taking a train to work and I see these incredible, we call the office is now, but in fact their factories.  They've got like thousands of people in thousands of square meters of space and they are all sort of plugged into headphones and computers.  I guess they must be call centers or travel agencies, booking flights and dealing with people whose flights are canceled.  How do you, it's very sort of individualized labor relations in those kinds of places that's why we don't call them factories in anymore.  It's very difficult to establish any kind of solidarity.  That kind of goes back to the beginning of our conversation.  How does it work for you and those kinds of cutting edge factories?

[Kent]: These factories I worked in were actually sort of production factories themselves producing products.  So it was (inaudible 1:37:43.3) in one end and the product in the other.  I had actually not worked in organizations that have the type of work that you are addressing here.  Although, I have worked with the office people if they have been more highly educated in academics in universities.  So in a sense I haven't worked with an organization that has attachments of social life.  This would probably be hard and a challenge.  But you know, yeah.

[Steven]: but in a way it kind of ties in with the other part of the discussion, actually which I missed and it was one of the things I was most interested, about how your Wiki actually worked.  Because I think of a certain way for us and material laborers were isolated in our work spaces, our cubicles, and our isolated spaces just trying desperately to collaborate and defined collective democratic innovations, if you like.  We are kind of trapped in a certain neofactory model which makes using a Wiki really a big challenge.  I don't want you to have to repeat what you already said, but maybe there is something you can add that could fill that little gap in my hearing of the conversation.

[Kent]: Yeah, you know, the Wiki has not worked so well yet.  I think it needs a lot of pushing and pulling for making it work probably because we are placed in various spaces in front of our own screen.  We definitely need to meet once in awhile like a workshop or at a summit or something like this for sure.  And if you do not do this once in awhile it would be pretty hard to do anything that is organized.  Because someone can always sitting on top of the building in the top floor and pulling strings is controlling but not organizing as I understand it.  Some would call a organizing but, no.  It's pulling strings.

[Scott]: I think Aaron is asking about your definition of organizing.

[Kent]: Yeah but it's my own definition so...  In a general sense, kind of in theory you would say, you would call it (inaudible 1:41:22.5) organizing.  But no, I'm just pushing the issue that this is actually more controlling then organizing.  Yeah, organizing for me is a social process and if you're sitting on your own in just carrying on orders that's probably not very social.  One way communication, a very formal communication.  So, this is kind of a question of definitions.  I think if you put it like this could potentially come to discuss something that is of importance.  And it's a skill that actually needed to make people work together.  It's kind of interesting what if or if not artists can contribute to some sort of development in these areas.  Being more attentive to probably emerging processes and something that's by accident or random pops up suddenly is.

[Scott]: But it's kind of nice to just do your work sometimes without having to think about it isn't it?

[Kent]: Sure.

(Laughter)

[Scott]: Organizing is hard.

[Kent]: Yeah.

(Laughter)

[Kent]: And in terms of talking about work force and lots of people are not interested in doing anything else to get the work done and go back to their homes and family and your computer or your computer game and just collecting the money.  I think many are quite satisfied with this (inaudible 1:43:56.2) enforce that they should work (inaudible 1:44:01.4).  And they are forced to do so if management tells them to do so.  They'd probably not find it very fun to be ordered to do so.  So, of course, working with organizations you should be aware of this and your own symbolic power or authority being an artist.  That you can actually get something done by sheer cultural authority.  All these things are at play.  I am not one of those that say you can make power go away because it's there all the time.  You have to address it as consciously as you are able to.  And your own power as well.

[Scott]: Well thanks Kent.  It's been really great having you here during our little weekly chat.

[Kent]: Yeah, thank you.  I enjoyed it too. Even though the late hours (laughing).

[Scott]: Yeah, I was going to say you're still awake.

[Kent]: Yeah, I'm still awake.

(Laughter)

[Scott]: I think Steven's been booted.  I'll add him.  Oh, no I can't. Never mind. Well (laughing).  Have a great evening Kent and yeah, we're definitely really looking forward to having you come back here.  We'll stay in touch about that and hopefully you'll be able to find some way to be able to stay up some more late nights drinking and joining some of the other weekly chats this year too.

[Kent]: That'd be cool.  Sure, yeah. Thanks.

[Scott]: Okay, goodnight everyone and we'll see you next time.

[Kent]: Thank you!  See you next time.  I hope to join your Skype again.

END OF TRANSCRIPTION

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