Chat History with basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d" title="#basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d">Beyond Participation: Toward Massively Collaborative Worlds of Art http://bit.ly/cFtVyb (#basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d)

Created on 2010-05-18 20:30:59.

2010-05-18

BASEKAMP team: 17:59:28

hi everyone -- how are you all doing tonight?

BASEKAMP team: 17:59:48

we're waiting on a few people -- namely, tonight's guest ]

stephen wright: 18:00:23

Hello all

Jason Wilson: 18:00:28

hi hi

BASEKAMP team: 18:00:38

hi Stephen

Cecilia Guida: 18:00:38

hi

bojana romic: 18:00:40

hello!

Greg Scranton: 18:00:59

hello all

Greg Scranton: 18:02:35

Stephen thanks so much for your poignant and insightful email to Nick!

stephen wright: 18:03:21

Hi Greg -- not at all, thanks to Nick for his interest. Hope to pursue that conversation

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:01

btw have you all had a chance to take a quick look at the webpage describing tonight's chat?

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:09

http://bit.ly/cFtVyb

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:44

here at the Basekamp space, things are slightly slow... weather is rainy again

BASEKAMP team: 18:04:54

but, there's beer on the table! and some food...

BASEKAMP team: 18:05:32

                                                                                                                                       

Carl Skelton: 18:06:44

Hi everybody! Carl here in NYC

BASEKAMP team: 18:06:45

some of you may have noticed we sent out the announcement a few hours before our get-together tonight

BASEKAMP team: 18:06:57

hi Carl !

stephen wright: 18:06:59

Hello Carl!

bojana romic: 18:07:05

hi!

stephen wright: 18:07:14

Yes, Carl kind of saved the night!

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:19

indeed

Carl Skelton: 18:07:29

My apologies for being a bit late, I've had an advneture

stephen wright: 18:07:30

THough he had a longer standing invitation

stephen wright: 18:07:47

Tell us carl, what happened to you on the way to P@W?

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:51

no worries Carl

BASEKAMP team: 18:07:56

chuckles

BASEKAMP team: 18:08:22

just to help make this smoother -- would everyone mind holding tight for a minute or two while we call Carl to test audio?

BASEKAMP team: 18:08:32

are you set up for that Carl?

Carl Skelton: 18:08:40

Had to load Windows on top of 389 GB to run an experimental chat client to field test in Haiti... and get across town in a downpour

BASEKAMP team: 18:09:00

you made it though!

Carl Skelton: 18:09:32

Absolutely.

stephen wright: 18:09:41

Are you then going to call us, Basekamp?

BASEKAMP team: 18:10:04

yes

Greg Scranton: 18:12:23

slaats!

BASEKAMP team: 18:13:19

ok, so who's ready for a call?

atrowbri: 18:13:30

<----  

bojana romic: 18:13:45

BASEKAMP team: 18:13:48

and... are any of you all eating or drinking where you are?

Carl Skelton: 18:13:55

should we?

atrowbri: 18:14:01

rum+coke

Carl Skelton: 18:14:07

brb

BASEKAMP team: 18:14:08

w00t

stephen wright: 18:14:08

Yeah, here it's beer at midnight

Greg Scranton: 18:14:33

ready. I have green tea from the fine dining establisment "WaWa"

BASEKAMP team: 18:14:37

this is where we're at: http://87coop.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/yuengling-lager-002.jpg

Matthew Slaats: 18:14:53

It's never too early for a gin and tonic.

Greg Scranton: 18:15:37

Stephen, yes I will surely follow up with Nick and should anything come of it feed it back onto you.  Thx again.

Carl Skelton: 18:15:41

Okay I'm back with a little bit of St. Chinian (did I spell that right?)

BASEKAMP team: 18:15:57

very nice!

stephen wright: 18:16:04

Spelling's good, how's the taste?

BASEKAMP team: 18:16:16

ok, we'll just call everyone - even the few of you who can't or don't want to pick up can just not pick up

Carl Skelton: 18:16:18

I'm enjoying it!

BASEKAMP team: 18:16:39

                       

Greg Scranton: 18:16:45

do it BK!

Greg Scranton: 18:17:58

whoa!!!!!

BASEKAMP team: 18:18:05

http://bit.ly/cFtVyb

BASEKAMP team: 18:19:47

howdy megfrisch

Meg Frisch: 18:19:54

waves

BASEKAMP team: 18:21:27

also eating http://www.nexternal.com/vegane/images/TingsNewImageXL.jpg

atrowbri: 18:22:14

did they get your permission to use your likeness on that Scott??

Meg Frisch: 18:22:31

!

BASEKAMP team: 18:22:50

atrowbri -- LLLOOOOLLLLL

BASEKAMP team: 18:23:01

we're also eating http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/lollerkates/511483941_1740fca525...

BASEKAMP team: 18:23:26

and listening to http://jmonkeyengine.com/blog/betaville/

BASEKAMP team: 18:23:48

L –O-O– KING at i mean

Meg Frisch: 18:23:50

thanks for the contextual visuals!

Meg Frisch: 18:24:10

helps ...

BASEKAMP team: 18:24:11

what r u eating mf?

Aharon: 18:24:24

oh.. got lost the audio..

BASEKAMP team: 18:24:36

ok rea-adding you aha

Aharon: 18:24:43

ta

stephen wright: 18:25:31

RFC?

BASEKAMP team: 18:26:00

for those only on text, FRC = request for comment

BASEKAMP team: 18:26:17

Carl is also talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

bojana romic: 18:26:31

audio lost

BASEKAMP team: 18:26:41

bojana asking re-adding you

stephen wright: 18:28:26

everybody knows that open software really works, whereas public participation in urban space projects doesn't. So we need to vulgarize the capacity of artists to try out their ideas in open source logistics and platforms.

Aharon: 18:29:58

is this an exercise in concensus making?

stephen wright: 18:31:04

low overhead of producing digital prototypes, plus ready availability of models -- makes this online game a way of versioning ideas for urban space

BASEKAMP team: 18:31:38

* by vulgarize do you only mean to make readily available, to popularize, or to make a lot more coarse (etc)?

stephen wright: 18:31:43

taking on relational esthetics in a project where 98% of people have no idea it is even art

Aharon: 18:32:02

kinda sense.. do u want to make sense..?

BASEKAMP team: 18:32:13

bak in greg?

bojana romic: 18:32:25

(I still miss audio, sorry...)

BASEKAMP team: 18:32:30

another Q -- * what is the minimum size of the proposals - we can see the max size can be really large - but are public art / size concerns built intp the software?

stephen wright: 18:32:53

just post it

Greg Scranton: 18:33:15

yes ty bk

Carl Skelton: 18:33:20

posted file v14.11.png to members of this chat<files alt=""><file size="379676" index="0">v14.11.png</file></files>

Aharon: 18:33:40

i wonder how do u think it mi8 work if one/single person "participated in that mass project..

Aharon: 18:33:49

oh

Aharon: 18:34:01

well.. u gotta b friends to c the dld

BASEKAMP team: 18:34:32

Q: also - earlier you mentioned open source economics - i think - just curious about if and where finances come into play here

stephen wright: 18:36:12

Sim City for real!

BASEKAMP team: 18:36:14

we're looking at the image now

BASEKAMP team: 18:36:37

fur reals

Aharon: 18:37:26

is the img on the site?

stephen wright: 18:38:50

Scott, where did you put the image online?

BASEKAMP team: 18:39:03

almost up...

stephen wright: 18:39:08

ok

BASEKAMP team: 18:39:41

uploading to main page

BASEKAMP team: 18:39:45

ok - it's there: http://basekamp.com/about/events/beyond-participation-toward-massively-c...

BASEKAMP team: 18:39:51

click on the 2nd image from the top everyone

stephen wright: 18:41:07

average computer is now able to deal with sophisticated 3d imagery, and can use free software that'll make a game that looks as good and acts as good as high priced game software

Jason Wilson: 18:41:36

where does the geodata come from? the city?

Aharon: 18:42:42

paying?? not always..

BASEKAMP team: 18:44:29

26:45 that is incredibly quotable Carl

Aharon: 18:44:38

..but we have more energy for game than so called reality.. thats a given..

stephen wright: 18:44:42

big time time / energy available -- if one considers the amount already invested in Sim City etc as opposed to how much time / energy exists in a human lifetime

Aharon: 18:48:30

how long ahead is too long atime..?

BASEKAMP team: 18:48:38

we will try to queue up the questions... there have been a few here

Aharon: 18:49:11

u make me feel like a teanager, carl..

Aharon: 18:49:21

teen even.. lol

BASEKAMP team: 18:49:22

BTW, Miachael @ basekamp is involved in a project in New York seeking proposals that have a 100 year span

Aharon: 18:49:50

no id

BASEKAMP team: 18:50:34

http://www.google.com/images?q=hugh%20ferriss

Cecilia Guida: 18:50:55

thanks

stephen wright: 18:51:03

very good point!

stephen wright: 18:51:40

sustainability -- a euphimism for "same old shit" as long as you can get away with it!

stephen wright: 18:52:40

as soon as there is an image in a debate, that's what it's about. So we need to get collective images into collective debates if they are to be collective and proactive

Aharon: 18:54:04

how do u know all these things in terms of how things will/will not happen?? r u based these ideas on what, a research? what kind of research? a vision? not sure what all the axioms are based on..

Aharon: 18:55:12

(these things = the effects that you thing will happen..)

stephen wright: 18:55:57

straight out of Constant's New Babylon, but part of a participatory game of what is intended

BASEKAMP team: 18:56:02

Carl talkign about Constant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Babylon_(Constant_Nieuwenhuys)

BASEKAMP team: 18:56:34

images http://www.google.com/images?q=constant+new+babylon

stephen wright: 18:59:30

providing some public oversight into use of public space while allowing / encouraging unfettered imagination around public project making.

stephen wright: 19:00:51

I got  dropped

stephen wright: 19:00:56

can you call me back?

stephen wright: 19:02:09

help -- I can't hear anything! Please call me!

BASEKAMP team: 19:02:20

calling

stephen wright: 19:02:26

thanx

BASEKAMP team: 19:02:38

sry for delay - went to get a beer while listening!

stephen wright: 19:02:58

good reason

Aharon: 19:03:25

u presuppose certain things will affect in the way you want.. the whole point in life is that only dead things react that way.. where is the unknown in this stuff?? only the input??

BASEKAMP team: 19:05:16

btw, also eating http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/dwinkles-old-fashioned-pecan-s...

Aharon: 19:05:22

(stephen.. scott n i r doing vote-swaps..)

BASEKAMP team: 19:05:56

and http://farm1.static.flickr.com/8/10785568_27d5d70c2a.jpg

BASEKAMP team: 19:06:07

aharon, yes - do you want to mention this?

Aharon: 19:06:28

was that a secret?

BASEKAMP team: 19:06:41

aharon - no - i mean, might be good to mention out loud

BASEKAMP team: 19:06:51

btw, there is another park-related question here - a technical question about the software

stephen wright: 19:07:18

We have some questions in queue. Let's take them one at a time.

Aharon: 19:07:18

oh. well.. u can tlk of it as well or better than i can

BASEKAMP team: 19:09:10

Catherine, calling you now

BASEKAMP team: 19:12:21

Kris here has a question - about the paarts of your application that represent the natural world rather than the built elements -

BASEKAMP team: 19:12:54

is time represented - for example, does grass grow like a tamagotchi?

Aharon: 19:13:23

it is interesting how we ppl in general tend to imagine stuff based upon what we think is the cutting edge of tech in our time.. the amount of refs to "open source" nowadays kind of reminds me how the term "frame" was used in the 80's when video seemed really advanced stuff.. or how, everything was a system before it turned into networks and then platforms.. or historically, how the universe was a clock work just after clocks became wide spread and seemed high tech..

stephen wright: 19:14:29

Let me try and formulate a question about the "undigital" potential of all this. One of the most interesting things about our potluck with Freenode people -- major advocates, users and developers of open source software -- is how down-to-earth they are (for geeks). It is a way of life, as if it didn't matter if we were online or in the street, 2.0 or 0.0. What is the potential for using/ doing Massive collaboration without the technology? Maybe there isn't the possibility. But what is the degree of technical determinism here?

stephen wright: 19:16:30

so this is a way of bypassing expert culture.

Catherine Page Harris: 19:17:06

I'm interested in the translations, and retranslations of what seems like freedom in the virtual world, which is actually scripted by technology, and the analog world, the world of cars and freeways and houses and dinner and local food and networks sit on the ground.  I like the idea of doing Massive collaboration as street action, as innovation in farmer's markets.  We need to be down to earth, to learn our localities.

Aharon: 19:17:27

not much of an expert bypass.. in both ways, stephen..

Catherine Page Harris: 19:18:33

Stephen,  all culture is expert and all culture is amateur.

Aharon: 19:18:43

cos many times u need to exhibit some expertees to b a meaningful cog in the "community" - for one

BASEKAMP team: 19:18:51

Catherine i know you have to go soon - it was good to have you - would be interesting to have you in on the discussion a bit more at some point

Catherine Page Harris: 19:19:04

I look forward to it!

stephen wright: 19:19:17

Catherine says:   all culture is expert and all culture is amateur.

stephen wright: 19:19:36

well tell that to the people who have to live with their expert decisions imposed on them

stephen wright: 19:19:44

who were never consulted

Aharon: 19:20:19

what do u all think it might mean when a person/group thinks they can engineer society..?

stephen wright: 19:20:44

I think there are is already a class of people who think that!

BASEKAMP team: 19:20:47

^_^  

stephen wright: 19:20:48

the expert class

Catherine Page Harris: 19:21:27

I do have to go, but I usually find that public process often hopes to invite everyone to the table, but somehow ends up with very few stakeholders able to come to it -- I guess I'm thinking about public process in landscape architecture which I've spent some years in and around.  I think that experts are often just well educated amateurs and often well meaning.  But perhaps that is too much optimism.  Then there are awful examples of experts who fail...

Catherine Page Harris: 19:21:35

good bye and more soon!

BASEKAMP team: 19:22:19

till then

Greg Scranton: 19:24:05

sorry guys need to cut out. lil man needs food. many thx Carl et al.

stephen wright: 19:24:30

see ya greg

Greg Scranton: 19:25:29

I will be @ BK next Tue Scott.  Will bring "country women" book to scan/return to Brett & Bonnie then.

BASEKAMP team: 19:25:31

later greggg!

Greg Scranton: 19:25:37

bye Stephen.

BASEKAMP team: 19:25:51

ah ok -- great! -- though -- i think they're in a little more of a rush than that :/

BASEKAMP team: 19:25:59

maybe Fedex? we can talk after

BASEKAMP team: 19:27:35

So how are decisions made in and around this application?

BASEKAMP team: 19:27:40

Is it a protracted yet meaningful concensus process?

BASEKAMP team: 19:27:57

 Or is it a "Do-ocracy", where everyone is free to step up as they're able and willing?

BASEKAMP team: 19:31:16

the 'objects' and context in the virtual world = the 'current state of the conversation'? or is there an a place for other kinds of discussio (text, audio, etc?)

stephen wright: 19:33:46

but concensus is not then the telos, not the goal and finality of the process?

bojana romic: 19:33:48

I have to go, it's very late here. Great talk, thanks!

BASEKAMP team: 19:34:32

see you next time Bojana!

stephen wright: 19:34:50

good night Bojana

bojana romic: 19:34:58

sure thing!

Aharon: 19:35:25

so.. in order for something to be done there needs to be a general agreement - in this case, what are the mechanisms that make sure it is not a dictatorship of the users/the-many? what is there to support the individual??

Jason Wilson: 19:36:17

gotta run, will definitely be involved in conversations and thoughts

BASEKAMP team: 19:36:28

aharon's question is sort of the opposite of stephen's current question on audio...

Aharon: 19:37:54

not sure if the opposite.. more like another fascet, i think

BASEKAMP team: 19:39:38

similar question - yes, maybe focusing on another point in the discussion

stephen wright: 19:40:09

Here is the example I was thinking about -- the Karl Lueger statue.



Karl Lueger to be tilted

The winner of the competition to Transform the Karl Lueger Statue into a Monument Against Anti-Semitism and Racism in Austria proposes that the statue be reset with a permanent tilt.



From the 220 international proposals submitted, the jury selected the design by Viennese artist Klemens Wihlidal. It envisages that the statue, and a part of the plinth on which it stands, will be tilted to the right by 3.5°. The jury stated that the reason for their selection was the fact that the design made the City of Vienna’s attitude to Karl Lueger clear and also showed the current state of discussion. Both Karl Lueger as a person and the statue’s reception are (more than) a little unbalanced. The intervention breaks the vertical character of the monument and thus questions the myth of Karl Lueger as a Viennese father figure. The tilting is also indicative of the problems the City has in its dealings with its anti-Semitic past.



According to Wihlidal the transformation “…irritates the viewer. The monument becomes involved in turbulences intended to provoke the question: what is going to happen to it now? Contrary to the situation when a monument is pulled down, the tipping transforms the statue into a memorial.”


The working group and its supporters now demand that it be implemented. In a few weeks the design will be handed over to the City of Vienna at the City Hall. Thus the motion can be put by those responsible in the Vienna City Council before the summer break.



Negotiations are underway with the artists so that all the submitted proposals can be prepared for presentation on the website (www.luegerplatz.com). In addition a publication and an exhibition is planned for autumn 2010 / spring 2011.

Aharon: 19:40:50

one of the interesting things that come to mind, is that actually, making virtual elements in the public space, can do away with the need to even question consensus, because the physicality of things do not play..

stephen wright: 19:40:53

Like the basekamp website!! Tilted!!

BASEKAMP team: 19:42:26

^^ indeed Stephen!

BASEKAMP team: 19:42:50

http://basekamp.com/ =

/* Disorient me */

body.front {

  -webkit-transform: rotate(-3deg);

  -moz-transform: rotate(-3deg);

  transform: rotate(-3deg);

}

BASEKAMP team: 19:45:41

a serious joke

BASEKAMP team: 19:46:28

"the idea of art being a serious proposition is kinky"

stephen wright: 19:46:49

who said that?!

BASEKAMP team: 19:47:32

^^ ? i think Carl did -- slightly paraphrased

stephen wright: 19:48:09

"it doesn't have to be theater"

stephen wright: 19:48:43

we're having a blast already. And it might work!

BASEKAMP team: 19:48:49

if all i thought would come out of this is a negative hegelian dialectic 2.0, i wouldn;t be working this hard

Aharon: 19:49:06

what do u think makes it art even if it "works"??

stephen wright: 19:53:14

We've talked about participation, usership, the "built environment" as Scott nicely calls it. And we've done it in respect to a plausible type of artworld which we haven't explored at all before: a virtual-based one. But one which acknowledges it virtual status.

Carl Skelton: 19:59:52

carl@ultratopia.com

stephen wright: 20:01:41

got dropped again

BASEKAMP team: 20:01:48

htttp://drupal.org/

stephen wright: 20:01:49

can you call me back.......

BASEKAMP team: 20:01:53

calling u back stephen

Cecilia Guida: 20:02:08

scott i should go (here it's 2 a.m.). thanks. i'll talk/join you next tuesday. bye bye

BASEKAMP team: 20:02:18

see you soon Cecilia!

BASEKAMP team: 20:02:21

great to have you here

BASEKAMP team: 20:02:23

hey

BASEKAMP team: 20:02:27

cecilia

Matthew Slaats: 20:02:32

Great talk -  Have to run off to vote for the school budget.   Hope to catch you next week.

BASEKAMP team: 20:02:36

speking of drupalare you still in Copenhagen?

BASEKAMP team: 20:03:17

we would like to come to the next Drupalcon in CPH, and may be good to hang out at Learning Site while there

Cecilia Guida: 20:03:25

great to join you, as usual! interesting presentation. good night!

BASEKAMP team: 20:04:11

http://cph2010.drupal.org/

BASEKAMP team: 20:04:26

Cecilia ^^ we can follow up about that

BASEKAMP team: 20:04:56

Learning site link: http://www.learningsite.info/

Cecilia Guida: 20:04:56

yessss! for sure.

BASEKAMP team: 20:05:02

BASEKAMP team: 20:05:08

maybe a residency... we can talk

Cecilia Guida: 20:05:45

a residency??!

Cecilia Guida: 20:05:51

why not...

Aharon: 20:07:27

java is very restrictive - isnt it?

Aharon: 20:08:02

i mean.. compair to perl or python.. even php come to think..

Aharon: 20:08:22

y is it written in java?

BASEKAMP team: 20:09:05

BTW.. it's coming soon so thought I'd throw this out there- --- FOSSCON is still looking for peopel to set up "tables" and present experimental and truly social projects http://fosscon.org/ on June 19th @ Rochester Institute of Technology in Rochester, NY.

stephen wright: 20:09:29

we need to talk about that scott

BASEKAMP team: 20:09:43

i mention in part because we're talking about Free and Open Source Software, and that Basekamp is giving the keynote speech (with close collaborators of course)

BASEKAMP team: 20:09:50

Stephen yes

Aharon: 20:09:51

int link - ta scott

stephen wright: 20:10:19

I'm in Amsterdam tomorrow night -- maybe we can skype briefly around 6pm?

BASEKAMP team: 20:12:01

re Drupal & Moodle - http://www.drupaldelphia.com/sessions/2010/lightning-talks#comment-29

Aharon: 20:12:24

i c ur speakin there on foss scott..

Aharon: 20:12:30

nice

BASEKAMP team: 20:13:42

they put my name but it is noy onl yme Aharon - bsekampp sa group + collaborators

BASEKAMP team: 20:13:55

less of a keynote than a key - chord? or something

Aharon: 20:13:57

hum.. loox like orily and ubuntu sponsor that..

alemcj" title="salemcj">salem collo-julin: 20:14:16

gotta go, y'all. thanks

Aharon: 20:14:21

well.. a key.. aint too bad

Aharon: 20:14:26

thanks

Aharon: 20:14:32

ciao ya'all!

BASEKAMP team: 20:14:49

bi everyone!

BASEKAMP team: 20:15:25

See you next week!

Meg Frisch: 20:23:07

dance party?